I have been looking for the "dreaded pressure" in loads im working up........... and have noticed an interesting thing.

Ive noticed on many shooting forums the guys talk of "signs of pressure" such as flatterned primers , sticky cases etc.

The interesting thing is that im seeing measurements (micrometer) that say i should stop chucking powder in ! But im not seeing any of the "signs" that we hear guys talking of....makes me wonder how close some guys are too needing a new face :eek:

Ive spoken to others who say they too start to see expansion measurements that say there nearing max and still are not seeing "signs" we all hear about.

How do "YOU" gauge pressure and figure out when to stop chucking powder into that case ??

Englander

I mic the expansion ring on the case, and , yeah, usually you see signs that you've reached max well before you see flattened primers, etc.
Makes you wonder what pressure people (me included) loaded to in the 'olden days'.

Still give the cases a critical eyeball after firing and before putting back into box. This is still a good habit to acquire, regardless if you measure the case base or not. I'll agree that primers in themselves don't tell you everything about high pressure thresholds (soft primer material, worn bolt face, enlarged firing pin hole in bolt face, soft pin strike, etc.), however, they DO tell you, along with sticky extraction and heavy bolt lift that SOMETHING is wrong with the load.

Usually, if you stay within the parameters of the loading manuals (realizing they develop their information using equipment and chambers differing from what you are using) and watch the OAL of the case plus the cartridge OAL, you will be OK. If you have a tight chamber, then even the manual loadings may be a little stiff. a chronograph is an excellent assisting tool, also. When your velocity starts exceeding those published by a healthy amount, it's time to reconsider just what you're loading.

The best tool to use is common sense and don't try to make a hotrod out of your reloads - it isn't necessary. If you want more pizzaz, then go to a bigger cartridge.

Good evening Englander. Glad you hear you are getting good with micrometers! You are totally correct that you cannot trust primers, sticky cases or such. On a specific firearm you may be getting repeated signs of sticking at a certain pressure.. until that guns wears more and gives the signs at a different pressure. Years ago I shot with a guy who shot nothing but Federal rifle primers. At least at that time, they were a lot softer than WW rifle primers. He really showed pressure signs in the primers when the loads got hot. WW primers will give you no such pleasure in a properly headspaced rifle. In very specific situations, some of these traditional pressure signs are ok to work with but cannot be trusted in any general way... in my experience. It sounds to me like you are doing it right and that will keep you safer. Keep that micrometer in good shape and it will keep you out of trouble.

Best......... Bill

ps... my favorite "old fashioned" way to judge max pressure came from many decades ago. This guy would increase powder until a primer blew. Then he would back the load down one grain and declare the load at a safe max. I do not know how many faces he went through!

Just to sing in the choir, it's a good idea back to up the mic and loadbooks with a chrono. (The inexpensive ones are fine.)

It's often that velocities, for whatever reason, are low or high(!) from published. It's a good verification of the gun's performance to the published data.

For example, I used Water's Pet Load data for the Mannilicher and got a relatively high 100fps increase in velocity by changing brand of 160gr bullet in a modest 2230fps load. That was max for all intents right from my first load, so I stopped there a little surprised (and glad I had the chrono).

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for the info. You are totally correct. Chrono, logbooks and good record keeping are very important. I recall Marshall Stanton went into this in some detail in his Beartooth reloading manual. Good stuff.

Thanks.......... Bill

Yes common sense is the best along with published load.....how ever surfing shooting forums we quickly see that common sense is not abundant in many people ;)

Did you see the guy on accurate forum pushing 220 gn bullets out of a .30-30 at amazing velocitys.....was he well over pressure ? I dont know ? But i bet many guys are asking for trouble :(

And in my particular case im working with a bullet and powder that has NO published data for either bullet , powder or even bullet weight in the calibre in question. I suppose in some ways im in the same boat a wildcatters........

I started by trying to figured out were my powder fell in burn rate charts and looking for published data for similar powders. There was alot of "guesstamation" envolved trying to find a scrap of published data even if for a much lighter bullet and recording how much increases there were between bullet weights and working on the difference.

Im concerned that too many peolpe believe they are safe and well as there primers havent fallen out yet and they can still eject the case without using both hands :rolleyes: When infact they could be sailing very close to the wind, particulary if they are changing primers, bullet makes and bullet stlye not to mention mucking about with seating depth and OAl ALL of which can effect the amount of pressure generated.....

Make you think, doesnt it .........

Englander

Have to agree with all of the above- a chrono IS a big help, and basic case inspection is so basic, well, you forget you do it every time....
One trick I've done when I have worked up a load, and all looks OK, but you wonder if you might be a hair too hot: take loading gear to the range (I usually do my loading at home), and using 1 case, load and fire it 10 times. If the load you've chosen hasn't loosened the primer pocket, or shown other signs after 10 load/fire cycles, you can be confident that your load is safe in your rifle.

The Speer Rifle and Pistol Reloading Manual No. 12 has an interesting section on primer appearance as it applies to "reading" primers to approximate pressure. This section shows a picture of brass cases at pressure levels from 20 percent below maximum to 20 percent over maximum. Pressure levels were measured in the Speer lab.

The picture illustrates that there is no visible difference in the appearance of the primers from the lightest load to the load well in excess of maximum. The section goes on to describe primer appearances that are actually indicative of concerns other than pressure.

1. Use once fired, neck sized brass

2. Chronoggraph your load EXACTLY duplicating ALL components in the manual except primers

3. Punch and mike only new Winchester large rifle primers across the widest part to see how big the head on your "nail" is getting.

4. If they are less than 0.217 and you velocity does not exceed the max velocity for the components in the manual, you are under MAX.

I guess this is a Pressure Statement more than anything else.

Has anyone ever seen pressure problems staying within the bullet or powder manufacturer recomended limits?

Honest Injun, No Kidding, etc, I have been reading and thinking about maximum pressure issues for quite a few years. I have pulled some bullets and removed powder the quiet way when it appeared I was overdoing it.

I don't mean to be a killjoy or a wise guy, but I have finally come to this regarding higher pressures: "What's the point?" Here's a thought:

I think the most difficult and productive thing is to come up with the most accurate and most consistent loads within recommended limits for mild, medium and heavy loads.

On the conservative side, there must be at least 8 million combinations of powder, bullet, case and primer for popular calibers. When a reloader has proofed all of those, then I guess, maybe, it is time to see what happens at even higher pressure levels.

Perhaps the very best move is to buy a bigger gun. I got comfortable with a 44 mag and wanted MORE POWER, so I bought a 454 handgun. Without having to endanger my hardware or my body, that gave me all the pressure I could stand -- actually more than I could stand. :) 100 rounds of 44 mag is not bad, but 100 rounds of 454?? Whooee!!!

Just a thought . . . .

Is there a hand grenades forum? :) Shooting without calling 911, Dave.

DAVE -

I agree with you so much I may start a thread on this elsewhere. For example if you like the '06, get a 300 Win or 300 RUM and load it down. If the reduction is not more than 300 fps, load density and accuracy will be fine.