Can anyone recommend an alternative powder for use with flintlocks?
Black powder is getting difficult to get in my area.
I am shooting a 50cal. rifle.

Is a way to make your BP last longer if you are short...just use BP in the pan and however much in the barrel it takes to cover the vent when compressed...usually about 10-15gr. On top of this, use Pyrodex (or 777, but I'll only use 777 in small bores).

The above is as reliable as BP....but uses about 15-17gr. of Black per shot. So long as a flinter has black-to-black ignition, it's as reliable as the lock will allow.

any other powder I have tried results in a longer delay in firing, the black powder lights up the fastest. Buy up what you can when you can.
Pyrodex will work, has anyone tried 777 in a flinter? That may be better than pyrodex

Ribbonstone: That sounds like a good tip. I'll try it.

Another question: I am having unreliable ignition problems with my "Traditions" Hawken.

1) I am constantly changing flints in order to get a good spark.
Could the hardness of the frizzen be a factor? If so, how can I correct it?

2) Even when I get a flash, often I get no ignition. It helps to clean the touch hole between shots.

The touch hole is very low in the pan. Would it help to modify the pan to make it deeper?

Would it help to make the touch hole larger?

Thanks

Jim

Knapping flints is a hard trick to learn on yourown...after watching a guy do it, it seems easy...just one of those things that almost defy word-description. BUT a sharp flint goes a long way to making good sparks.

Could be a frizzen problem, and a replacemnt shouldn't be all that hard to find (Dixie Gun Works or Track of the Wolf). Probably not the frizzen, but could be...may check on-line for information on tempering frizzens.

Could be as simple as not having theright length flint. Needs to end up pointing right at the center of the pan at it's forward movement's limit.

OF the two choices, prefer a deeper pan. The idea of a flint lock is that the pan powder never covers the vent...only the flash of the powder jumps through that vent, not a fuse-like train of powder gains. Try loading the charge and the pan with a small quill in the vent, blocking any powder from filling it...keep the pan powder mninimal and below the vent. Remove the quill (can be a wire or a tooth pick...old tiers used a feather's quill so I use that term) and give her a try.

Have seen an oversized vent in use...will fire, but there is a good jet of gas out of that vent. Watched one guy move from a light target load to a full hunting load in a rifle that had a vent liner...this wonder-boy decided to remove the liner and use the big threaded hole as the vent. Went "boom", but blew the lock out of the side of his rifle as that jet of gas caught the cock/flint's side. Would prefer not to drill out a vent unless it is way-way undersized.

I had a soft frizzen on my 2nd hand T/C Hawken. either that or the case hardening was worn through. The flints cut it up bad and it was only throwing a few big sparks. If they all missed the pan, try again. If yours is rough, smooth it up a bit on a grinder. It will need hardening or replacing, period.

Standard flashhole size seems to be 1/16", with some liking 5/64". Newer T/C liners are countersunk more, so the flame doesn't have to go as far. Use half a pan at most and tip the gun over to the right after you close the frizzen, so the powder's AWAY from the flashhole.

The old military muskets had generous flashholes. That was a bit hazardous when the soldiers were lined up shoulder to shoulder, so they used flash guards to turn the flame up. Hold a big piece of stiff paper, like an old target, 6" out from the flashhole. Big enough that your hand is a foot away from the flashhole. Fire a stiff load and you'll see.

Swabbing the barrel can push the gunk into the flashhole. Best to have a lube that lets you load without swabbing, so you've got dry powder up against the flashhole.

As for knapping, I found I can turn a good flint into gravel real quick.

Bye
Jack

Take a look at this Hawken. Scroll down to the close-up of the lock, and you'll see how everything should line up. Set your flint so it's no more than 1/16" off the frizzen when you're at half cock, but NOT touching it. I use matchsticks to space out a short flint.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partDetail.aspx?partNum=s81&styleID=280&catID=12&subID=81

Bye
Hack

Good stuff. Thanks guys.

Jim

Good stuff. Thanks guys.

Jim
I have a few questions and a suggestion...Does it work with a new flint and in about 5 shots or less does it stop?...What color are the sparks? White, red , or orange?...Where does the flint make contact with the frizzen?

When the flint scrapes the frizzen it carves a small piece of the frizzen face off in the form of a hot spark or BB...this hits the pan and starts the whole thing going...

Now if the Sparks are red to orange your frizzen should be about right...If the are white and very few it is probable that the frizzen is too hard...If they are yellow and vey few your frizzen could be soft, also if you are getting severe gouging...

A soft frizzen can be repaired by using Kasenite which places carbon back into the frizzen, but this is only a surface fix, the best frizzens are through hardened, meaning they are the same all the way. Some times the best method is just to replace it with a new one...You can try and redo the frizzen but it can be a bit touchy, but if it isn't working right anyway it can be a good learning experience...

A frizzen that is too hard is easier to fix, you can do it at home with your oven...Remove the frizzen from the lock, take a small tuna fish can and fill it with dry fine sand, mortar sand will work..heat the oven to 375 degrees and place the frizzen in the sand...Place the can in the oven and bake for 1 hour, turn the oven off and allow to cool naturally...try the frizzen, you can go to 400 degrees for 1 hour, but no more, some times it takes 2 tries to get it

Just some thoughts to try and help...

Swampsnipe

The sparks are yellow. The flint strikes the frizzen about half way down.
If I turn the flint over it strikes higher of course, but the flint does not last as long.
It will spark for at least 10 shots before I need to shift it or replace it.
It leaves visible grooves in the frizzen.

A bigger problem is when it misfires even though the pan powder does ignite. That happens frequently after I have fired more than 10 shots after a thorough cleaning.
Once cleaned, that problem goes away for a few more shots. It helps to use a pipe cleaner between shots.
I notice that "Traditions" is advertizing a new hunting flintlock rifle with a more reliable ignition system. It is reported to have a better frizzen and a deeper pan.
It would be nice if those features would fit my rifle.

Thanks again

Jim

Yellow sparks isn't the best...brighter.whiter would be better. Fomr what you write, sounds like a frizzen problem...too soft, not enough carbon. Rehardening/tempering a frizzen isn't a job that most people want to jump into.

For now, flip that flint arround and carry spares...if you have to adjsut it or change it every 10 rounds, then do so. Keep the vent clean and clear.
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Didn't statw what rifle it is...but if it is a Traditions, then I think you know why they offered an "improved" "better" frizzen.

What was said about the Traditions is a fair statement...With flintlocks you need to have the best equipment if you want to have good results...

Yes it sounds like your frizzen is soft, you can contact them and see about a new one (Warranty) or just buy one, what ever works...I have seen it many times where cheap equals very poor performance...

I have had less problems shooting flinters than my caplocks, but that is just my experience...

Swampsnipe

Thanks. No question that a better quality flintlock would be more reliable.
It is my first black powder gun and, for the money works pretty well.
I have not hunted with it, and would not unless I can improve reliability.
Some day, I plan to build a kit rifle. For now, life's little complications do not allow the time or the money.
So, any help you can offer to make what I have better is much appreciated.

Guess its better to isolate one problem at a time. At least you can work out the lock's problems at home (just set a fan to blow the little pan-flashes out the window), then look after the vent's problems.
Can get those rifles to work...and if that frizzen is a tad soft, it's happened on the higher priced ones as well. A few bucks for a Dixie Gun Works catalog is well spent, ther is a lot of information there besides the goods they sell.

Buy some new flints and have a seconmd try.

OK...finished a rebuild on a stock-shattered .32 long rifle (that now looks like a 7/8 scale Lyman Great Plains rifle). Tried FFFg, FFFFg, Pyrodex RS, Pyrodex P, Tripple Seven, and some old Clean Shot.

The only ones that fired 5 for 5 in the pan were FFFFg, FFFg, Tripple Seven (that's a surprise). Both Pyrodex's were 4 for 5 and the clear shot was a misrable 1 for 5. Figure there was no reason to test actualy shooting if the pan wouldn't ignite...and it doesn't escpae me that the three that wouldn't work well are also the most hydroscopic.

In shooting, the two BP's did fine...777 had a few problems. Don't believe it cares for un-confired/un-compresed ignition...pan fired, but the "flash" was kind of slow and drawn out. Using fffg as the main charge in all of the above, only 777 had a pan-fire but no charge ingniton.

Using 777 as the main charge, the two BP's set it off...this time two missfires with 777 as the priming charge (in one the pan didn't ignite, in the other it ignited byt didn't set off the main charge).

Evidently this rifle will set off 777 when using black as pan powder, but there was a noticable delay between the pan and the shot...fffffstboom where black gives a fboom.

Vent is back bored, and there is a short jump to charge (and in small bores, that barrel wall is pretty thick...desperately needs back boring to bring the cahrge close to the flash).

Ran out of time for any other pan/charge variations... but the little rifle shoots very very well and I'm pleased.

Track of the Wolf was advertising a frizzen hardening service, but I don't see it listed on their site now. They're advertising for gunsmiths, so they may be shorthanded. Still, it might be worth giving them a holler.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/

I tried Pyrodex in the T/C shortly after I got it, and it fired once in a while, even with a bad flint and frizzen. I ordered a new frizzen from T/C, and it didn't fit the lock, so they sent me a complete new lock, FREE! I figure a pound of FFFFg is good for 2000 shots, so it's not worth fooling around with any thing else.

A flash-in-the-pan after cleaning means you've rammed some gunk into the flash channel. Run a dry patch up and down the barrel fast, so the air hisses through the flash hole. Better yet, especially if you're hunting, is to take out the flash hole liner and make sure it's clean. That's a good idea if the gun's been sitting for a long time. Some of the bullet lubes seem to condense on the inside of the liner and block it.

Sounds like you've got a nice shooter, ribbonstone.


Bye
Jack

The rifle started out life as a full length Kentucky type (acutally a Tenn. as it isn't ornate). Pedersoli make, but the lock is bright polished and marked "Garrett Arms Norfork, VA."...remember the company use to put out Sharps repros. under that name. How the previous owner shattered the last 9" of stock isn't clear...he wasn't saying, but he looked embarrassed and fustrated about it (on a guess, he slammed the car door on it? ran over it with the pick-up? dropped it off the roof? drove off with it on the roof and it fell off on interstate...who knows). Put some seriously deep ugly scars on the barrel flats, big gouges and rough spots like it was drug on cement.

27 1/4" of barrel pretty much untouched, the back 3/4 of the stock and metal is perfect...but a full stocked 27" rifle hurts my eyes. Salvaged the thimbles and end cap, cut the stock, reattached the end cap, cut the barrel, crowned the barrel, dovetailed for a new sight (original was beat to death in the accidnet), added 13" of rectangular steel tubing that matched the barrel flat ahead of the stock, reattached the salvaged thimbles (pins salvaged as well), and took her shooting. Had to have something to model it on, so gave it the lines of the Lyman Great Plains rifle.

Still need to brown the attached under rib to match the barrel and make a ram rod to fit (used a range rod to shoot it), but it doesn't look abad at all...may change the steel under-rib for a more shapely brass one, but for parts-on-hand work, it's OK.

Thanks. I am learning something here. When you say that the charge must be close to the flash, do you mean that the charge should be right against the flash hole?
Should I see powder when I look closely at the flash hole?

I have read that some flint shooters will try to jar the charge toward the flash hole with the heal of the hand when loading. Is that a good practice?

Yes and yes. If you can't see the powder with good light and new bifocals, it's too far back. I found that shoving a toothpick into the flash hole and leaving it there until after the ball is rammed home leaves the powder too far away from the hole. Take out your liner and push a toothpick in from the outside, then look at the inside. There's hardly any room for powder around the toothpick, particularly with FFg. Clearing the flash hole before you add powder is a good idea and a few light pats on the grip settles the powder. Caplock shooters give Old Betsy a few pats too so the powder gets into the drum.

Bye
Jack

Jim:

Use little pan powder and try to get it to collect to the outside 1/2 of the pan away from the vent. All I want to cross that space in go into the vent is the FLASH, not a powder train. When I bothered to measure the amount, was using 4-5 gr. of FFFFG (that's about a .22LR case full)...just arranged so that the powder doesn't cover the vent or it will have to burn down to the ven'ts level before it can flash across to the main charge...of if the vent is filled and the pan heaped full, will burn down to the vent's level and then burn the trail of powder filling the vent like a fuse. Better to just leave the vent powder-free and let the flash cross the gap....that gives the "fboom" rathere than a "fffffffffboom".

The comment on being "close" is in reference to the vent liner allowing the main charge to be close to the outside surface of the barrel so that flash has a short distance to jump. In small bores using thick barrels, the thickness of the barrel makes for a long jump...the vent liner shortens this distance and improves ignition.

The tooth pick or even a short piece of pinao wire stuffed in teh vent at loading makes sure it's powder free...just be sure that there isn't enough pan powder to cover it back up again.
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Haven't a clue how I got interrested in rock-locks....live in an area where the only rocks/stones have to be trucked in....have to drive an hour to find rocks, and ther are no flints in the bunch.
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To the original poster. Besides new/sharp flints, can try just flipping the flint over (back is still back, but top is now bottom). Most people put a flint in with the bevel of the edge facing downwards so the flint strikes more of the frizzen's length....but by reversing, it sometimes works better and often chips the old edge into a new sharp edge (kind of self knapps).

I thinks we're almost loading the same way. I left the toothpick in for a long time, but I found I get surer ignition by leaving it out. My priming flask drops about 3 grains in the pan, and I roll the gun over to the right so the pan powder is away from the flash hole.

So the powder is close to the flash hole on the inside and away on the outside.

Rocks. We had to get home from school as quick as possible in the spring, so we could pick rocks until supper time, by hand.

Bye
Jack

Thanks guys.