Hi guys
This is my first time to this forum and wanted to see what others in New Yorks southern tier felt about doing away with the shotgun only hunting zone.I for one thing we should have the right to hunt with rifles here but thats just my opinion.whats your`s

I'd love it, but I'm not gonna hold my breath....

Hi guys
This is my first time to this forum and wanted to see what others in New Yorks southern tier felt about doing away with the shotgun only hunting zone.I for one thing we should have the right to hunt with rifles here but thats just my opinion.whats your`s

I don't know the area myself, but is it very flat land? That is generally the reason for shotgun only hunting and for pretty good reason. Actually, I've heard quite a few stories of people being shot thru the years from people firing rifles in the air or over flat lands. Happens more then alot of people think. If it isn't flat land, then that does sound a bit silly. I know where our land in Bradford County is in PA is very mountainous and I'm guessing you are talking about that area. -MJ

The land isn't particularly flat, but it is populated.
Population density is a good deal higher, in most places, than Bradford County, PA.

I, for one, have been hunting the Southern Zone for 40 years. I have never felt handicapped using a slug gun. As a matter of simple fact, at the ranges deer are shot in Dutchess County are well within the kill range of a shotgun slug. All you need is a good gun, good load, and practice. Except for a muzzleloader, I have never shot a deer with a rifle, and feel no need to do so. Three unfilled tags in 40 years is a good enough average for me.

Welcome to the board, Tweesdad - be sure to join us in the other forums here on the board.

Yes, that sounds like success not to be argued with! :D

There has been alot of talk about this topic in the recent past, I don;t know why? There is a very good conversation about this topic on a NY hunting web site.

www.huntny.net

I realy don't think it will make a difference in our area. and if anything did happen as a result of the change, like some kind of injury, we would never hear the end of it.

There are alot of deer in the area that i hunt, I meen a lot! and there are a lot of hunters and homes. I just don't think it will be worth all the trouble it may cause.

check out the other forum for other peoples point of view. I think I am the minority when it comes to this topic. But I think in general that it isn't that big of a deal to anyone that they are going to make a big stink out of it. Another negative about it, is that some towns are thinking about changing the gun discharge laws becasue they are becoming more and more populated. I think a change to rifles might give reason / excuss for these areas to change thier policy.

They allow hand guns in rifle calibers why not allow rifles.

Your right about the handgun laws. You are allowd to use um. and to be honest your right I have no idea what the difference is. I think it might be, that the laws just havn't caught up to the technoligy. I hunt with a pistol in the southern zone. a 44mag S&W which for me is just a little less of a hunting range than my shotgun anyhow. But I have been thinking about getting myself a T/C Encore to kinda get around the rifle law. The area that I hunt is a flat open 300 acer farm, so that should work out great for me. I think it might be more of a political thing than a common sence thing.

Hi Guys
Well i guess almost every one has there own view on this subject.The reason i started this thread is at heart im a reloader and a rifle hunter.I own 17 long gun`s and only two of them are shotguns.There`s something about sitting down at the reloading bench and making your very own ammo built for your favorite deer rifle.To me this is a big part of the hunt.I am a member at a local gun club and MOST of the people i see down at the range that are sighting in (if you want to call it that)there deer shotguns Throw out a 5 gal bucket and if they hit it 2 out of five times there happy and are ready to head to the woods ( notice I said MOST people )I hunted with two dear friends this last year that grew up in the country and in a hunting enviroment But nether of them had there shotguns sighted in.One said he is shooting 6 inches high at 50 yds and the other one had no idea where his shot gun was shooting.well to make a long story short i filled all five of my tags and they just wasted ammo.The thing that pissed me off the most was that they didn`t want any help or advice with there problems.but they did take my last two doe to fill their freezers with many thanks and one even invited me over for dinner too.I see a lot of people spend a lot of money on the newest shotgun just to have to shoot the price of the gun in sabot`s to find and sight in the right ammo.My very own beretta autoloader slug gun goes ca-ching $$$ instead of BOOM when i pull the trigger that feels like im pulling open a barn door.I don`t have these problems with my rifles and my friends in AZ that hunt mule deer and elk i have hunted in many other places around the country and always see slughunters with the same old problems.also i would like to say congradulations to TWEESDAD for 40 years of successful hunting with a shotgun.MY HATS OFF TO YOU!As i sit in the woods on opening day and hear those distant five shots in rapid fire I often wonder if its that guy i saw at the range shooting at that five gallon bucket.I know im a bit long winded but all in all i say leave the shotguns for shot and the rifles for putting the big game meat in the freezer.

Riflemen 10X,

I am sympathetic with your problem and one observation I have had that many that have served or are still serving our country is twofold. One is that if you stay in any amount of time you will be transferred to another state at least once and will be afforded the opportunity to learn that states gun laws and hunting regulations. Also, the regs of other nearby states.

2. You will meet many people from many other states. Some of them the very best of people. But they bring with them their habits and customs.

Why do I right all of this? I have observed that someone who only takes the minimal amount of time if any to sight in or pattern a weapon of one type will do the same with any weapon of any type.

These persons expect luck to drop on them to help them. The only luck I was ever taught about or have ever seen outside of gambling establishments was of the type that I made for myself by taking the time to learn my weapon, its positives and negatives, learn about my opponent, his positives and negatives, as well as habits, and to assume he, she, or it, was more cunning and intelligent than me.

This always forced me to work hard so that I could increase my chances of success.

Sorry for the rant. But if they will not take time to learn their slug gun then they will not give the time needed for a rifle, pistol, bow, crossbow, spear, or even a rock.

Hi Buzzard1
I too have noticed your observations and feel the same.I think I got a little off track and would like to make myself a little more clear.First im not trying to say slug hunters are slobs or anything to that efect and after reading your post i think i was a little hard on slug hunters.but i don`t think it`s all there fault.Rifles are by definition precision tools that are far more capable than shotguns Thus the shotgun only zones.It`s real easy to get 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards with a 30-06 than than it is to get 3 inch groups out of a shotgun at 50 yds.many slug hunters don`t even know that there are things that they can do to make there shotguns shoot better beside change to another slug.shotguns are made for shot where precision isn`t a factor.Make it easy to get good results and the masses will follow(Build a better mouse trap)Shotgun`s like the browning A-bolt slug gun are built like a rifle and have many features that shotguns in general lack.these guns with the advance in sabots like winchester partition.give these guns the capabitity and energy to kill deer at 200 yds.Due to all of these new wonders in technology is part of the reason why we see bills like s2326 being considered.one thing that they looked into was hunter safety and the safety of the public and property in general.What they found was there is no proof that hunting with slugs was any more safe than hunting with a rifle.They plan on making exceptions for rifles around high population places and for one think this is a good idea.will we still have people killed and close calls in the field?Yes we will.It`s a danger we all face every time we head into the hunting woods.Even bow hunters have even shot and killed other bow hunters.I don`t know if any of this will make anyone change there mind.and i hope i haven`t offended anyone.We all have -holes and we all have opinions and don`t forget to wear your hunter orange.

I have hunted the Southern Tier for close to 40 years now and have killed a mess of deer using just a shotgun and slug...When I started 30-some-odd years ago you had old fixed choke 30" smooth bore barreled guns tossing a 1 ounce ball of lead with nothing more then a bead front sight...and we killed deer...Then the gun industry one day woke up and said hey there's an untapped market...and thus the advancements began...Some of us kept up with the advancements by buying the newest and greatest products to hit the market...I now have a Mossberg 500 topped with a scope that has a 24" fully rifled barrel that will shoot a Federal Barnes X slug as accurately as my Remington 700 .308...the only thing that limits me is distance...which I have no problem with since most of the Southern Tier areas I hunt are thicker then all get out anyway...BUT...some hunters are still of the belief that hey "I'm killing deer with this old shotgun so why should I change"...thats where you get the guys lobbing slugs at a 5 gallon pail with their "Bird" guns..and as long as they are still out there lobbing their slugs I know they are still pushing the deer to me...Bonus!!!

Have I ever wished I had had my Rifle..oh yeah you bet...like the time I had a wallhanger just out of my shotguns range...but hey thats hunting...other then that it's just shooting.

Hello
It's a pleasure to read all the posts on this thread. There are different points of wiew stated,but nobody confronting anyone.
This is different from a thread on another Board,
There was a fellow claiming that hunting with rifles would cause great loss of life because the land is realitively flat.
I mentioned the fact that Orange County has allowed rifle hunting forever,and does not have any more problems then 'mountain counties'.
That brought down a torrent of flames from mostly bowhunters.
I have no strong feelings about introducing rifle hunting in these counties.I do have a strong feeling about keeping the status Quo in my own county.
Frank

Hello
Thanks kragman. I think were doing a good job here too.we need to debate our concerns and find out the facts.I, for one, am open to others point of view, but i still feel the way i do.
Some people think rifle hunting on open flat land will not work because the bullets will travel great distances and might hit someone in the next zip code.another guy thinks that if rifle hunting in mountains will not work because people will be shooting over the crest of the hills and the bullet will land on someone. can both of these happen YES will they happen YES.It will happen with slugs and rifle bullets.Last year a guy was shot during a drive by another hunter who shot at a running deer and missed.The slug went across the field and hit another guy in the thigh The year before that a guy in full camo was shot and killed by a 15 year old kid out hunting for the first time. NOTE:you have to be at least 16 years old to hunt big game in New York.The first one would have happend whether it was a slug or a rifle bullet.the later should have been totally avoided because the kid should have been at home and not in the woods.how many accidental shootings did you hear of and how many would have turned out different if something else was shot.Lets hear from you with some hard proof from actual shootings.I'm sure we can hear from both sides and maybe we can get a better picture.

I am with Frank.

As I live in the same county, hunt the same woods...

We don't have a lot of rifle hunting accidents around here and if we were moved to "shotgun only" like other areas it would be a mighty shame.

Two years ago I looked on helplessly as a large bodied 10 pointer slowly walked accross a field in the Stewart (shotgun only) hunting area.

I don't trust my slug gun beyond 125 yards. When my laser range finder read 170 yards I just about sobbed.

Ah well, the luck of the draw. -gbb

Lets look at this in reverse...I live in a Rifle area with more and more houses being built weekly...we are now experiencing homes being shot during deer season...They don't appear to be intentional but "Stray" bullets making their way out of the woods and hitting the houses...Unfortunately no one is coming forward after a house is reported being hit...so we don't know the full circumstances of how these home are being shot...We are no where near as populated up here as say Rochester, or Syracuse so think what could happen if rifles were legal down there.

Riflemen 10X, I agree in some specific areas in the southern tier there are places that a rifle could be used but I feel the State dosen't want rifles in the southern tier and that's why the shotgun only mostly applies due to small wooded areas and large population density. Respectfully, M.R.

Dear Mr. Reichenbach:

Thank you for your e-mail regarding Senate Bill S.2326b, allowing hunters
in certain counties to hunt bear and deer by the use of rifles.

This legislation was amended on January 15, 2004, in the Senate
Environmental Conservation Committee. It was also amended in the Assembly,
which is critical for this legislation to become law.

Be assured that as an avid supporter of the 2nd Amendment and sportsmen, I
will closely look at this bill as it comes before the Senate for a vote.

On another note, you may be interested to know that I am opposed to the
Governor’s budget proposal to establish a statewide licensing fee on
pistols and the establishment of a five year expiration date on all pistol
licenses and a recertification for license renewals. I will do everything
in my power to eliminate these proposals from the 2004-2005 State Budget.

Thank you again for contacting me. If I may be of any assistance in the
future, do not hesitate to call.

Sincerely,

Pat McGee
State Senator

Just got this today in my e-mail thought i would post it here.have another one from the newspaper i will do shortly.
Riflemen10x

Just came across this topic and also have strong thoughts about rifle usage in certain areas of NYS. I live in Cattaraugus County, 5 miles from the PA border and can hear the rifle shots when PA season opens.

Have used shotgun slugs since 1956 with excellent results. Also use T/C Encore pistol with 7mm-08 barrel. Equiped with a 15" barrel and scope, this highly accurate rifle-caliber pistol can reach out and take a deer at 250 yards if the hunter is capable.

This caliber will shoot a bullet over 2 miles, yet is legal to use because it is classified a pistol not a rifle. You figure it out.

I vote, Pat McGee for Governor, then the hunters and shooters will be assured of their rights in NYS.

Wow kinda funny, I never seen this thread before 10 min ago. I just started here the other day, and I asked peoples opinion about what chambering I should use for my Contender pistol. someone mentioned something about using a rifle. I told him I do in my northern zone. I use a inline in the sothern, but moisture and muzzys dont mix well. I like the fact that I dont need to worry about which county I can hunt in because I dont have the right gun. BTW shotguns are for the birds;). I probobly wouldnt even think of geting a pistol permit, if I could use my rifle anywhere.
I think Riflemen is right. Acedents can happen, regardless of what your using. Shure a low range wepon, in a high pop dencity is sound. If thats the reason for the law, how come I can shoot woodchucks out to 600y in the sothernteer without problems?
.

I've hunted PA with a rifle and the terrain isn't that different than where I hunt in New York.I still only get 50 yard shots.I like the results of a rifle vs a shotgun.

Hi Guys,
I found this article in the paper i thought you all might like.

2003 WAS THE SAFEST YEAR EVER FOR NEW YORK HUNTERS
New York State Department of Enviromental Conservation (DEC) commissioner Erin M. Crotty announced last week that the 2003 hunting season was the safest year ever recorded for the nearly 700,000 sportsmen and sportswomen who hunt in the Empire State. The number of hunting-related injuries reported to the DEC last year was 32, compared with the preview low of 43 in 2000.
"New York has a long history of promoting safety in the field, with our state being the first in the nation to implement requirements for hunter safety courses for minors in 1949 and all hunters since 1960," Crotty said.
"The DEC will continue to support the ongoing efforts of New York's Sportsman Education Program to promote responsible and safe hunting in our communities, because even one injury is too many."
New York State's Sportsman Education Program has led to a 65 percent decline in the hunting injury rate over the past four decades, due in large part to the dedication of more than 3,300 volunteer instructors.
The average number of hunting injuries has fallen from 137 percent in the 1960's to 48 per year so far this decade. This safety record emphasizes the fact that hunting has one of the lowest injury rates of any recreational activity.
Just to give folks a gauge, in the 1960's there were a average of 137 hunting injuries. In the 1980's there was a yearly average of 85 hunting-related shooting incidents and in 2000 New York hunters had an all-time low of 48 shooting incidents.
Hunting-related shooting incidents are thouroughly investigated by the state's Enviromental Conservation officers and investigators, usually in conjunction with state police, county sheriffs or local authorities. The lessons learned from these incidents are used to continually update and improve hunter safety courses in an effort to reduce the number of hunting injuries each year.
"Last year's season also gives us reason to be proud of our 20,000 junior license holders ages 12 to 15 who hunt small game under adult supervision," Crotty said. "These young people are the future of our American hunting tradition and not a single one of them caused an injury during 2003."
Tragically, two of the injuries reported in 2003 resulted in fatalities.
Twenty of the 32 incidents, including both fatalities, involved deer hunting. Seven of these incidents occurred during spring wild turkey hunting. All of these were visibility-related, when hunters failed to notice another hunter in the line of fire or mistook them for game through the vegetation. Four out of five hunters now wear some hunter orange safety clothing and this practice has reduced the number of injuries related to visibility. The DEC is always looking for experienced hunters to pass on the tradition of hunting safety and responsibility to the next generation.

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=s2326

Hi guys
Just wanted to let you guys know this bill s2326 was voted on in the New York senate and passed as ammended to the assemby for there vote.For me this is just what the Dr. orderd.
I would like to urge all of you New York hunters and outdoors men to write or call your assembly Member and tell them to support this bill as writen.you can Email them by clicking on the link above and going to the Assembly Home.
Thanks for your support,
Riflemen10x

Hi Guy`s,

Was chatting with one of my DEC friends and he said this bill is going to die next January when they get back in to vote for it.There isn`t enough support for it and a lot of opposition.If we want this bill to pass like I for one do we need to ban together and keep writing our elected officals and tell them we want this bill to pass as is.

Riflemen10x

Hi rifleman and all---

Good topic. ...I moved to Ithaca about 45 days ago. I am also a bow hunter and re-took the bow safety course just before I moved here. While I am not a big fan of legislation or laws, there is merit to a safety course. It was very well delivered and worth the time and effort and yes I think it would help make anyone develop safer habits and it even dealt with the how to's and NOT to do's regarding treestands and tree climbers. Indeed, I learned some things and I have an acquaintence that should have taken the course: he fell and died from a tree climber last year.... The course I just took was a course designed JUST for bow hunters...

However, I have also found many stats like rifleman has which clealry illustrate injuries from hunting accidents is way way down and decreasing.... even though supposedly we have more 'stupid hunters' out there than ever.

I like rifles too. Shotguns in my most humble opinion are best loaded for small game or clays.

If the Sothern teir allowed rifles I'd be for it. Although, and this is where all the above gets tied in: I am tempted to advocate for a special rifle hunters course that deals especially with ONLY shooting when you know where your bullet is going and stresses safety safety safety.

But I think rifle hunting should be allowed.

i hunt in jefferson countie and opening day i was in my treestand and hear two bullets wizzing thru thru the trees and the loud whapp of the bullets hitting..these guys were road hunting and were shooting from the road,,,nice guys huh? there in lies the problem,,you put rifles into the hands of some lazy slob hunters and problems will arrise,,,the small numbers of slob hunters out there would raise havock with the highly populated areas if they were to be able to use rifles.also there is already a death from hunting in the north contry ..also someone stated that shot guns are for clays and birds? i can cloverleaf a group at 100yds with my 870sp/w a hastings barrel.pinned and scoped with a leopold 1.5-5, very accurate for spitting a 300 grain slug dontcha think?its all designed by the dec that way to keep free rangeing bullets to a mininmun, altho its not a rifle we as hunters have to make adjustments to the shots we take and stand placement become critical to make those closer in shots,,,thats what i say? it makes you a better hunter when you have to do your homework ..and those deer that run across the field just out of range? thats hunting, you cant kill em all..happy trails

Dear dafooge,

I think this post might explain this a little better than i can put it in words.
http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=15792
People need to be responsable and held acountable for there actions.I know im a safe hunter and do what I can to make it safe for other hunters.I feel most hunters do the same.Don`t you?
We will always have some jack *** out there doing stuff that is unsafe and if somthing happens we need to throw the book at him.I don`t see how limiting the avarsge hunter is going to make it safer.Its just like gun control.us gun owners know that gun control doen`t work the same thing happens with hunter control.The hunters braking the law and doing unsafe things will do them no matter how many laws are on the book.I don`t want to be limeted in what I do becouse of a minority of hunters that don`t follow the law anyway.I don`t see the reasoning behind it just like there is no good reason behing gun control.We need to give the average hunter in New York more respect for being a good hunter than we are giving them.It sounds to me that NY is full of dumn a$$ hunters that don`t deserve to be in the woods.Is this what you want to be seen as?I don`t.

Riflemen10x

I agree.
The argument that someone might get killed holds no water. if it did then we would have no cars, thousands of people die EACH YEAR from car accidents in this country and you don't hear anyone saying, no cars only carriages... And yes I'm a safe hunter adn most are safe, and those who aren't whether they have a 243 in their hands or a 12 gauge MAGNUM with a riffled barrel, they are dangerous either way... and rifleman I fully agree with you that IT is the tiny fraction who would cause accidents and saying shotguns and NOT rifles in the southern teir is bottomline pretty senseless...

The occurence of accidents by the way is NOT higher in the north where RIFLES are legal, it is in the south where SHOTGUNS are the ONLY legal long-gun allowed.... hmmmmm. 'kinda puts a different spin on 'er don't it???!

gun site rifel scope i wish to get the wish i wish tonight to drop a buck ith a3030 in the southern zone tonite

Hi Guy`s,

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=S00918

Heres a new link to the bill that will alow rifles in the shotgun only southern tier.The old bill was thrown out at the end of the year.I guess that happens to bills that are over two years old.

My friend talked to a dec guy this last weekend and he was told this bill is going to pass this year.its hard to know what is going to happen,The last time i chatted with someone that knew what was going on he told me it wasn`t going to pass becouse of too much opposition.Who Knows.I don`t see why they would re introduce the bill if it didn`t have a chance to pass.

Please guy`s email your public offical and tell them to support this bill.

Thanks
Riflemen10x

Hi folks,
Newbie here.
I'd like to add my $0.02 on the subject.
Personally, I haven't met a slug gun I like. They're heavy, unbalanced, ugly and kick a whole lot more on my end than the other, and uncomfortable. I can shoot a .338 WM for the recoil I get off a 12Ga Slug (felt, anyway)). I would much rather carry a Levergun on a still hunt or sit with a scoped bolt action in a tree or on a spot and stalk. Just plain more comfortable.

On the other side, I have hunted in Chenango a few times, otherwise, mostly CT and Region 1C. What I have seen neer the "Grasslands" of Zone 7 is all kinds of crazy trigger-happy stuff. Folkks with their autoloaders emptying magazines and tubes on running deer, shooting over ridges... sheesh!

Stuff like that will just keep me out of the woods during gun, and stick to my bow.

Anyway, either it's a gun restriction that doesn't make sense because, as said, the regs have not caught up with technology, or it's a safety issue, or necessity. Pick your poison, just watch out for the anti's, we don't need to give them anything they can work with.

Good Luck
EMC2

Hi Guy`s,

Take a look at this.PA stats show that shotguns are more dangerous than rifles.shotgun hunters are a minority in PA but 1 out of 4 property damage cases are caused by a shotgun.A4853 is at its third reading and is ready for a vote.I hope it passes this year.


From the House Game & Fisheries Committee meeting on 3-14-05

HR 61 Semmel - (PN 233) Resolution directing the Legislative Budget and Finance Committee to conduct a study on the use of rifles versus shotguns within this Commonwealth and recommend whether special regulation areas should be expanded. - The bill was reported as amended with Rep. Neal Goodman (D-Schuylkill) voting in the negative.

On behalf of Rep. Paul Semmel (R-Lehigh), Chairman Smith stressed that the resolution is not an anti-hunting bill. He explained that the need for a study arose from a recent shooting in Lehigh County where a pregnant woman was shot while getting into her car.

Neville remarked that the Game Commission has kept data on hunting accidents since the 1990's, and at first glance, the data indicates that shotguns are more dangerous than rifles. He added that the Commission does not have the expertise to analyze the data, so the Commission supports having the study conducted by the Legislative Budget and Finance Committee.

Democratic Chair Ed Staback (D-Lackawanna) noted that in the resolution, it states that the number of hunting accidents this year was high. He remarked that he was under the impression that the number of accidents was decreasing. Neville clarified that hunting is getting safer overall, but this year there were several high profile accidents. Rep. Staback then asked about the circumstances surrounding the shooting in Lehigh County, noting that he heard the shooting was over a horizon. Gregory Houghton, Assistant Director of the Game Commission's Bureau of Law Enforcement, replied the issue is hunter safety education, noting that knowing when it is not appropriate to shoot is basic hunting safety, which is why that case was charged as negligent shooting instead of accidental shooting.

Rep. Miller raised a concern with one section of the resolution, remarking that the language makes an assumption against rifles and she asked that the Committee adopt a verbal amendment to remove the section. Chairman Smith agreed to move the verbal amendment, noting that an amendment could not be drafted before Wednesday. The Committee voted to remove lines 4 and 5 on page two (which state "especially in light of increasing tragic incidents during recent hunting seasons; and") and lines 10-14 on page two (stating "WHEREAS, When comparing population densities in Pennsylvania's 67 counties, it appears to be inconsistent that center fire rifles remain lawful in counties with population density in excess of some of the counties which are now included within a special regulation area designation;"). Rep. Goodman voted against the amendment.


Riflemen10x

Hi Guy`s,

This bill has passed both houses and is going to the govonor for him to sighn.Get ready guy`s rifle hunting in the southern tier is going to happen this year.

Riflemen10x

Hi Guy`s,

This bill has passed both houses and is going to the govonor for him to sighn.Get ready guy`s rifle hunting in the southern tier is going to happen this year.

Riflemen10x
Congratulations! Seems this will be something very welcomed by your fellow hunters.

County lawmakers will vote on the rifle hunting and natural gas
drilling resolutions, and others, at their 1:30 p.m. meeting Tuesday
at the Edward D. Hubbard Auditorium, Tioga County Office Building, 56
Main St., Owego

http://www.pressconnects.com/today/news/stories/ne071005s177143.shtml

Members of the Tioga County Legislature want state lawmakers to know
they don't wish to have deer hunters using rifles in the county or
natural gas drilling on state land.

The legislature will vote Tuesday on two resolutions meant to voice
their opinion on the state measures.

The hunting bill, which would allow high-powered rifle hunting of
deer and bear, passed the state Senate and Assembly and awaits the
governor's signature by Friday. The county's resolution is aimed at
removing Tioga County from the bill if signed into law by the governor.

The resolution states that allowing rifle hunting in the county would
lead to increased posting of private land, which many residents have
traditionally left open to deer hunters. That action, the resolution
states, will compound the local deer population problem, not lessen
it, which was part of the reasoning behind the state bill.

Legislator Richard Huttleston, I-Owego, who has been a vocal opponent
of the bill for the last several weeks, said he has received calls
from many constituents who are opposed to hunters using rifles to
hunt deer in the area.

One concern echoed by lawmakers and residents is the danger of using
rifles, which have a greater range than shotguns. David Dilello,
owner of Timber Creek Sportsman Shop in Vestal, said the safety zone
for a rifle is about a mile, while for a shotgun it's about half a
mile. That means there should be nothing within that range a hunter
would not want to shoot.

Supporters say the greater range means hunters can be farther from
the deer they hunt. Opponents say being farther from a target can
also increase the risk of shooting other objects by mistake.

Broome County Legislator David L. Lindsey, R-Binghamton, said he and
other county lawmakers got involved in 2003 to make changes to a
proposed rifle hunting bill. He said the result was the current bill,
which reduces the rifle hunting area in Broome County to land east of
the Susquehanna River.

"I'm sorry that Tioga County didn't jump on this before," Lindsey
said. "It's a very dangerous situation for them."

Lindsey said while he hunts, he thinks hunting with a rifle is
dangerous. He said there are better ways to limit the deer
population, such as lengthening the season or putting out extra
hunting permits.

State representatives for Tioga County, Sen. Thomas W. Libous,
R-Binghamton, and Assemblyman Gary D. Finch, R-Auburn, both supported
the bill.

"I feel badly that they are doing the resolution now that it's passed
both houses," Libous said.

Had Tioga officials approached him before the vote, he said, he would
have been able to work with them. Libous said Tioga County's only
hope now is to reach out to the governor's office and request that he
veto the bill.

Finch did not return a telephone call Friday.

The county legislature's resolution regarding natural gas drilling
requests that the state authorize drilling only on the privately
owned property of interested residents.

The state Department of Environmental Conservation is holding
hearings on the issue of drilling for natural gas on state-owned
forest lands, including 3,400 acres in Tioga and Broome counties.

The county's resolution, which has the support of at least five of
the nine legislators, states that natural gas is an important state
resource, but current technology allows for its mining without
disturbing forest space that was set aside for recreation and conservation.

"I'm definitely against the state misusing the original purpose of
the land," said Legislator Richard Harrington, R-Richford.

Huttleston, who proposed the resolution, noted that people who buy
property that borders state-owned land do so because they want to
live next to an environmentally sound area, not a natural gas drilling rig.

http://www.eveningtimes.com/articles/2005/07/13/news/news2.txt

The only two legislators who voted against withdrawing a resolution
calling for an exclusionary amendment to a proposal to allow rifle
hunting for big game (such as deer) in Tioga County at Tuesday's
regular Tioga County legislative session were Richard Huttleston of
Campville and Richard Harrington of Richford.

The amendment to bill S918A, which is slated to be signed into law by
New York state Gov. George Pataki Friday, requests that lands within
Tioga County be excluded.

Tioga County Legislative Chairman Martin Borko of Waverly noted that
the proposal now before the governor is multi-county in nature and
includes Tioga County, where shotgun-hunting-only for big game is permitted.

The motion asking for Tioga County's exclusion was withdrawn at the
request of Legislator Mike Roberts of Apalachin, who noted that more
information is needed before such an amendment can be sent.

Borko said he agreed, noting that the current plan contains no data
regarding the need for Tioga County's inclusion. He said the
resolution could be rewritten and reintroduced later, asking that
Tioga County be taken off the "permitted" list.

The resolution noted that at present shotgun hunting is recognized
(in the county) as being safer than rifle hunting, in particular
given Tioga County's "rolling hill/flatland" type of topography and
density of human population.

"A shotgun slug tends to drop and has a range of about 1/2 a mile,"
explained Legislator Dale Weston of Spencer, who said a rifle,
depending on its caliber, fired from the same angle, has a flatter
trajectory and a range of up to one mile.

There were protests from the floor, such as from Jim LaGursky of
Owego, who described himself as a sportsman and a hunter for 27 years.

"There have been a lot of stories about people being killed by
hunters with rifles, but in (adjoining) Pennsylvania and areas of New
York State where rifle hunting (for deer) is allowed there are no
reports of more people being killed by allowing rifle hunting," he
said. Her pointed out that deer herds need to be thinned and
harvested like other resources, and rifle hunting will increase that
probability.

However, he did agree that there would probably be some hunters who
would shoot across fields and highways, which were Huttleston and
Harrington's primary objections.

Like Joseph Albrecht of Owego, they agreed that a conversion from
shotgun to rifle hunting for deer represents "a micro-solution to a
macro-situation" and would lead to an increase in the posting of land
and compound the deer/bear problem.

Albrecht, who said he now resides in a trailer court, said he used to
be a country resident, but was asked several times by hunters to
leave his own lands to assure his personal safety during the hunting seasons.

Although the resolution that was withdrawn Tuesday only asked that
Tioga County be excluded from the rifle-hunting bill, many Tioga
County residents said they felt the permitted shotgun-hunting has its
own dangers, in that some hunters do not take sufficient time to
ascertain at what they are shooting.

Legislator Mark Trabucco of Owego termed the resolution "a feel-good
legislation," that would allow the (Tioga County) legislature to tell
people that they had addressed their concerns. He said that he
expected it to be ignored by the state whether or not it was submitted.

I just don't think this is a good idea in my area (and neither does my husband or any of his friends). The deer population isn't that dense around here. Our fears are not based so much on the risks to human life as much as they are based on the impact this will have on the already dwindling population of mature bucks in our area. It has gotten so it is almost rare to see an 8-pt. let alone anything bigger. Besides the fact that this is going to make it even easier for the "outlaws" to point their little rifles out their windows and pick off any buck that crosses their path. My husband loves to archery hunt and he lives for the mid-shotgun season drives. This is going to change hunting as he has known it for his whole life.

The following was copied directly from Environment DEC Newsletter on the DEC website:

"Deferred Proposal

An earlier proposal to establish a new early, special, antlerless-only muzzleloader season in the Southern Zone was met with considerable opposition. The proposal was intended to enhance and diversify antlerless deer harvests, which are a key component of New York's deer management program. Deer numbers have declined throughout much of the Southern Zone as a result of a number of factors, including two successive harsh winters. Accordingly, this proposal will be deferred until deer numbers recover and the season would have more value as an additional management tool."

If this is true and deer numbers have declined throught the Southern Zone, why exactly are we thinking of legalizing rifle hunting for deer & bear in the Southern Zone? I thought the key reason was overpopulation of deer in that zone. I don't think that environmental conservation played much of a factor in this bill as did "taxation conservation".

Hi Guy`s,

Welcome to the board Youbetshiraz,Im glad to see more women taking to the outdoors and sharing there knowledge.

I first read your post a couple day`s ago and have put much thought into my reply as not to be heavy handed or disrespectful.I think you have put one of the biggest problems against Rifles in the last sentance(This is going to change hunting as he has known it for his whole life.)

I have spent time hunting with a rifle,I know what they will and will not do.I reload and spend much time at my local range working on loads and getting rifles to do what I expect from them.I spend lots of time hunting woodchucks where long range Hunting is the norm and not the exception.I guess you can say I have a good personal relationship with rifles and using one to hunt deer will make my hunting more pleasureful.

I will use Pa as an example due to the fact it is less than five miles from my house and spend some time down there and know what the deer population looks like. To put it as simple as can be Pa dosn`t have these problems that most of these slug hunters are thinking we will have.there has always been big bucks taken in warren county Pa every year.Now that Pa has an antler restriction there has been even more big bucks.One problem Pa is having that New York is also having is a reduction in the deer population due to the ruff winters and some feel due to the over issuing of doe tags.it isn`t due to the fact they use rifles.Most hunters in Pa shoot there deer at less then 70 yds.My brothers last three deer were shot with a 270 Winchester and the furthest one was 55 yds.well with in shotgun range but he likes to use his rifle.He likes the way it fits him and the ease of carry.

I guess Im getting a little off the subject but what I am trying ti get to is a rifle isn`t going to make me see more mature bucks in the woods.isn`t going to fill my frezzer any faster,isn`t going to make me feel any less safe knowing there is a guy on the other side of the farm hunting with a rifle.And last but not least hunting with a rifle isn`t going to change the way I hunt except I will be using a tool that I want to use.The woods will not change only the tool.I still will not take a shot that I didn`t feel safe in taking.I still have a hard time understanding all the big deal the slug hunters are having with this rifle issue.All I can see is just what you stated at the end of your first post.There dealing with the unknown and it scares them.

Riflemen10x

Welcome to the board Youbetshiraz,Im glad to see more women taking to the outdoors and sharing there knowledge.

Thank You, although I must admit, turkey is about the only animal I hunt. I do love to shoot, though.

I have spent time hunting with a rifle,I know what they will and will not do.I reload and spend much time at my local range working on loads and getting rifles to do what I expect from them.I spend lots of time hunting woodchucks where long range Hunting is the norm and not the exception.I guess you can say I have a good personal relationship with rifles and using one to hunt deer will make my hunting more pleasureful.

My husband too hunts woodchuckwith rifle. He has been on two whitetail hunts where he loved shooting the distance with his .308. In the winter months we also enjoy hunting coyotes using Walker hounds and his Ruger mini 14. He also owns a .243 and a Savage Striker 7mm.08. He does not reload his own shells (mainly because his wife can't justify the expense of the equipment - it's too convenient to pick up a box at Wal-Mart).

Now that Pa has an antler restriction there has been even more big bucks.

This would be a fantastic idea. We don't so much have the problem of too many doe tags issued as when they are issued, they are not filled. More hunters in this area are looking for antler than are looking for meat. If there were antler restrictions perhaps more does would be harvested in the late season when the frustration of not shooting a deer overcomes these "antler hunters".

I guess Im getting a little off the subject but what I am trying ti get to is a rifle isn`t going to make me see more mature bucks in the woods.

I agree, you won't see more mature bucks because you are carrying a rifle, but when you are in a tree stand on the edge of a 300 yard field and that mature buck walks out of the woods on the other side of the field (so long as you are a good shot and buck fever doesn't overcome you) you can take him. When I said it will change hunting as he has known it his whole life, this is what I was talking about, the excitement of having that same buck come within shotgun range will be gone. Once the mature bucks become rifle shy you may not be able to get them withing shotgun range - let alone bow range.

isn`t going to make me feel any less safe knowing there is a guy on the other side of the farm hunting with a rifle

Do you get many hunters from Down-State in your area? In my town alone there must be 5 different camps that fill with inexperienced deer hunters from the city. You better believe that this makes us feel alot less safe knowing that they will be on the land that borders our property with high-powered rifles. My god, some of these "hunters" mistake goats for deer (not kidding, it has happened in my town) at shotgun range. I may be a little neurotic about safety - but I'm entitled, I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter.

In closing and to reiterate what I stated in an earlier post - I believe the only hunters this will benefit are the illegal hunters. They will no longer have to worry about shoving an arrow through the rifle hole in the deer that they just shot from the road or worry about being questioned by EnCon as to why they are carrying rifles in the southern zone. It will be much easier for them to illegally hunt my property because by the time I realize they are there they will have already taken their shot from the road. I did not say that it is not a good idea for the entire southern zone, I just don't believe it's a good idea for my area. In recent years our town has become so populated that my husband has lost half of the land that he had permission to hunt. On my road alone there are 5 new houses this year (built on old hay & corn fields). We don't have the open spaces anymore.

Oh, I almost forgot, you can just call me "Shiraz". ;)

Once the mature bucks become rifle shy you may not be able to get them withing shotgun range - let alone bow range.



Nonsense. Here in Texas we can use any centerfire cartridge for deer. There are a few muzzleloader/shotgun areas, but not too many. Archery season allows any kind of bow except a cross-bow, and you can use a crossbow during rifle season, if you wish. Muzzleloaders / shotguns may also be used during rifle season, if desired. No restrictions on handguns (except centerfire). No restrictions on action types except no full auto (class III) allowed.

Just about the only broad restrictions that come to mind are no rimfires for deer, and no hunting deer at night. I don't believe you can hunt deer with dogs anymore, but I could be mistaken.

Point is.... changing the method of taking the deer is almost immaterial, in terms of managing the harvest.

Archery hunters still take thousands upon thousands of deer, from the average doe to spikes to very high quality bucks. Same for rifle hunters (and handgun hunters).

The issues of equipment should not divide hunters. Unfortunately, that is what commonly happens. We've all got a near-religous attachment to our favorite method of hunting, and a deep aversion/suspicion of anything else.

I grew up in another rifle hunting state. It is bordered by two states that do not allow rifle hunting. Crossing the state line(s), let's see.... it all looks the same to me. The deer can't tell any difference, but somehow it's safe to hunt with a rifle in point 'A' yet 5 feet across the state line in point 'B' it is not.

Oh and all 3 states in the example are predominantly rural.

Now, as it gets closer to urban/densely populated areas, yes, sometimes we do need to have some restrictions. After all just because there is a deer in the front yard, doesn't mean it's a good idea to poke a rifle out the window and put a .30 cal bullet through it.

We have a deer season in Texas that stretches from sometime in September to February, at least. We allow nearly anything that burns powder or will poke a hole in a deer.... generous limits in most areas, tags come with your hunting license. And if anything, we've got a staggering overpopulation of deer (2 good springs/summers in a row).

It's not the tools that are being used, it is the hunters who have to be educated in what should be done to maintain a healthy, stable population.

Good luck with your turkey hunting (have just been bit by this bug myself, you may be horrified to learn that my first turkey fell to a .45 ACP :D but I'm using a shotgun now). And good luck to your husband with his deer hunting.

Now, as it gets closer to urban/densely populated areas, yes, sometimes we do need to have some restrictions. After all just because there is a deer in the front yard, doesn't mean it's a good idea to poke a rifle out the window and put a .30 cal bullet through it.

This is precisely my point, I believe this is what alot of people are going to be doing. Around here a person has alot of land if they own 20 acres - would you hunt 20 acres with a .308 or .30-06? Probably not, but their are alot of inexperienced hunters that would do just that.

But please don't forget about the weekend hunters that come here, and believe me, we get alot of them (we actually go to Wal-Mart on the night before opening day just to people-watch and listen "Hey, Vinny, we bedda git a coupla deese knifes ova heah for cuttin out dere guts & stuff.") When you come to the "country" from the "city" for a weekend or week-long hunt and you hear about the 50 acre spot you will be hunting, 50 acres seems like an African Savana to you. You see people from the city buy up these plots for cheap and then throw a camp on them and call it their hunting camp. We can hear them over the high-band radios as they are shooting right past eachother - no exageration. But as I stated before, safety isn't my only issue...

This bill was kept pretty quiet until it was all but passed into law by the Governor. It wasn't recommended by NYS DEC because of over-population of deer, DEC had nothing to do with this bill. As I posted earlier, DEC's website states that there has been an under-population due to 2 harsh winters in a row. It was formed by Legislators because of the high insurance costs due to deer-car MVA's. Deer-car MVA's are not due to over-population of deer, they're caused by over-population of People.

It's not the tools that are being used, it is the hunters who have to be educated in what should be done to maintain a healthy, stable population.


I agree. Last night I was discussing this with my husband and father and one of the biggest concerns they have is inexperienced hunters carrying high-powered rifles. Currently you can hunt our area with handguns, my husband carries his .7mm08 Savage Striker - he's not against the caliber of the gun, just the caliber of the hunter. And as he said, at least with a handgun, you need a permit. But now those same guys that we see at Wal-Mart will be able to pick any rifle out of the case and hunt with it the next day. And I'm sure they will think "the bigger, the better".

I guess all we can do is just wait and see if Pataki signs this.


Good luck with your turkey hunting (have just been bit by this bug myself, you may be horrified to learn that my first turkey fell to a .45 ACP :D but I'm using a shotgun now). And good luck to your husband with his deer hunting.

Thanks!! And boy do I ever need it, I missed one from 15 yards with my Mossberg Mod. 500 20g. 3" during the spring hunt. (struck by a wicked case of turkey fever) But my husband got him the following weekend. He didn't have a pellet in him from the week before!! Go Figure. ;)

Truthfully, if it is legal to hunt with a 7mm08 handgun, there is not ten cents worth of difference between that and a full rifle, ballistically. If one is safe, then so is the other. If not.... then not.

Once again, I agree. It's not the firearm that is safe or unsafe, it's the hunter. But right now for these inexperienced hunters to legally hunt with a rifle caliber handgun they have to be permitted for that gun (which could take months to be approved by the court and would be even more difficult for a person from an urban county) which deters alot of people from hunting with these guns unless they are die-hard deer hunters. Besides the aggrevation of having to get a permit, the cost of these guns is usually pretty high (compared to a shotgun). Rifles, on the other hand, do not require permits for purchase and (depending on the model) are comparable in price to a shotgun. Therefore, they are more accessible to inexperienced hunters.

I'm just curious...

Do you folks back east have to pass a hunters Safety course?

I lived in Ill, there you had to have permit to be in possession of a gun (didn’t realize how oppressed I was).

When I moved to Co, I was required to take an aprox 10 hr class given by Division of Wildlife instructors. This class cover all type of tackle, gun laws, game laws, gun safety, survival skills….. It would seem that something like this would solve half your problems (after all, some folks are just thick!)

Good luck
Nate

I'm just curious...

Do you folks back east have to pass a hunters Safety course?

I lived in Ill, there you had to have permit to be in possession of a gun (didn’t realize how oppressed I was).

When I moved to Co, I was required to take an aprox 10 hr class given by Division of Wildlife instructors. This class cover all type of tackle, gun laws, game laws, gun safety, survival skills….. It would seem that something like this would solve half your problems (after all, some folks are just thick!)

Good luck
Nate
Yeah, they have hunter's safety courses. I remember when I took mine I was 20 and by far the oldest person there. I believe most everyone else was around 12 or so. So I guess if you have the common sense of a 12 year old, you are considered qualified to hunt big game in New York State. :rolleyes:

You make it sound like you think that you and your husband are the only people 'qualified to hunt big game in New York State.'

Maybe not the only qualified couple, but I'd say among the few... Shiraz has some good questions laid out. (Wouldn't it be great if everyone thought about hunting as carefully as she has?)

I don't think stray bullets are too much a concern. Additional harvest by yahoos - because of additional range - is a valid question, if only relating to hunt 'quality' and fairness.

I'm most concerned about getting shot while hunting, but don't think that the additional range of rifles (over 100yds) is as much a concern as walking up on a yahoo in a stand or blind at close range (short range). Distance might grant a better picture of other hunters (or they might neglect to see you...)

In the immortal words of Phil Simms, "I'm too askert" to hunt on public land anymore - don't care if it's shotgun or rifle. Too many rounds clipping branches, too close (VA, MD, PA, NY). I only hunt on private land when I know where everyone is, and who they are.

I do hunt the northern tier by rifle - well, it's not really hunting, but 'armed hiking' since there are no deer there (but there are no other hunters, either...).

You make it sound like you think that you and your husband are the only people 'qualified to hunt big game in New York State.'

Not at all, as I said earlier, I don't hunt big game at all, just turkeys & the occasional coyote. I actually believe that the number of "qualified" and/or safe hunters outnumber the "inexperienced" and/or unsafe hunters in my area.

Maybe not the only qualified couple, but I'd say among the few... Shiraz has some good questions laid out. (Wouldn't it be great if everyone thought about hunting as carefully as she has?)

Thank you. My husband has to be credited for my attitude about hunting safety and ethics. I didn't pull on my first pair of camo pants until we were dating when I was 19. He was taught by his father and his father was taught by his father.

If I get a little defensive in my posts it's because I see my husband put his whole heart into the sport that he loves so much while you have people out there that don't pick up a gun until opening day and they are the ones getting the beautiful bucks because they are maybe not even stepping foot out of their truck to do it. (For example: Last year we were out scouting and caught this beautiful 10-point on video camera. He was gorgeous! My husband was so excited that he showed ALL of his buddies and even most of his acquaintances. Well, opening day of Northern comes and what happens? One of the town "outlaws" gets a beautiful 10-point buck "up North". It's got a Northern Tag attached to it's ear and a 30.06 hole in it's chest. Problem is, either the buck we got on film had a traveling twin, or this guy just rifle shot the buck my husband had been scouting on land that only he & his family has permission to hunt. And then, it wasn't even this guys tag, he tagged it with his brother's tag & his brother doesn't even hunt.) I just don't want it to be even easier for these guys to be unethical.

I do hunt the northern tier by rifle - well, it's not really hunting, but 'armed hiking' since there are no deer there (but there are no other hunters, either...).

The Legislators that thought of this bill didn't do it for Environmental Conservation, it was to benefit insurance companies - They don't care if the entire population of whitetail deer is obliviated.....just so long as there are no more mva's. People mistake the overpopulation of people for an overpopulation of deer. My father is a perfect example of this. He lives in a small community just west of Albany. He said he remembers a time when you would not see a single deer in his area, now he has a problem keeping them from eating his shrubbery behind his town house. Well, before those town-houses were built, that area was wooded as was much of that area. The existing deer population is being forced into areas that are more densely populated with People. Does that then mean that the population of deer needs to be reduced, or that people need to work harder at Environmental Conservation?

Please remember, if you are not from New York State, New York is only the 27th largest state in the Nation, but it is the 3rd most populated, and not all of that population is from New York City. We have 48% more people per square km than Pennsylvania and over 400% more than Texas.

I've instructed well over 100 children in Firearm Safety classes, and I believe 12 years is the right age to get them started. Far better than a 14 year old boy undergoing puberty and the resulting hormone overload. This does not mean they are ready for unsupervised hunting. Saskatchewan requires supervision by an adult until they are 16. A 12 year old has already been exposed to the world's worse firearms instruction on TV and in video games and it's time to introduce them to the real world. Hopefully they can understand the more technical details and separate the real world from fantasy at this age. A few fail, of course.

A neighbour grew up and learned to hunt in PA. He much prefers hunting up here where he has a square section (640 acres, a square mile) or two to himself & family to hunt in. Frankly I can't imagine hunting where it's hunters per acre instead of square sections per hunter.

Bye
Jack

Hi Guy`s,

This is what drives me crazy.This Bill was introduced by senater Volcer (sp?)He is an avid outdoors men and feels and perfers the use of rifles.This bill has nothing to do with whiping out the deer herd or lobbing auto Incsurance groups you out of your mind if you think rifles will do this.Most hunters here in NY I see in the woods can`t hit the broadside of a barn.A 50 yd shot is pushing it.I would have to say mabe 5% of the hunters are able to hit a 6 inch target at 300 yd.I dought the guy`s you talk about from the city will be able to do it from what you say.It takes practice to do that and when they buy a box of shells and a rifle the day before the opener you should feel at ease knowing they are most likely not going to get a deer.Not to mention most of these guy`s will go out and buy the best wizbang magnum in a bolt action and won`t be able to shoot well enough becouse they can`t deal with the recoil.Not to mention how fast do you think these guy`s can operate the bolt to get another shot off.Not fast.It will eliminate a lot of the five roung bursts we hear in the woods.Sorry but this excuse that rifles are going to make it easyer to poach deer is driving me out of my Mind.Guy`s in your area are already poaching with rifles so whats the big deal?People that brake the law are not going to obey one law and not follow another.You don`t have to explane why you have a rifle in your truck if stoped by a cop.Its not against the law to have a rifle in your truck.y6our not thinking right.and thinking like this is going to make the rest of us miss out on a great opertunity to use rifles.I tell people that opose rifles that If it passes I hope they don`t use one of them evil rifles and they should take the first step to make the woods safe and stick with there shotguns.sorry i sound mad but I am.Peopkle from outher states that use rifles are laffing at us for the reasons you think rifles are unsafe it`s just not true.If it was true Pa wouldn`t have any deer left and hunters will be dieing in the woods at unbelivable rates.

Don`t even get me started on the age thing again.37 states have no limmit on age for a child to start hunting.most states the limmits are 12-14 years old with New Jersey being one state with the lowest limmit at age 10.Unfortunatly New YorkMust save us from ourself again and has the oldest limmit on age for hunting big game at 16.by this time most young boys are more interested at chasing girls than deer and rabbits and im sure some chids miss out on a great oppertunity to hunt and fish becouse of the age limmit.Some kids are ready to hunt at age 8 and with an adult helping them and showing them the ropes they will do well.I also know kids that at the age of 18 are not mature enough to handle a firearm and don`t have any busness in the woods.Each child is a differint story and should be judget differintly I don`t think the state should put an age on who should hunt and when.

please I don`t mean to sound rude or pushie I just got Layed off due to someone that couldn`t due there job right and I got blamed.and have a short fuse right now.

Riflemen10x

Jack, I agree with your age theory on teaching...

There is plenty of vast, empty space to hunt here, though. The Adeerondack (NPR pronounciation - I kid you not) Park is bigger than Yosemite. I've scouted it a bunch of it from the air. Western PA is similar, too...

Both are mature forest, with the very low large mammal populations - "all natural" with no man-support of farms, garbage or lawn shrubs. It seems to me that all 'northern tier' deer taken are loafers on the edge of the small grandfathered towns. The only place I see major sign is around towns.

Come on down to hunt it - we'll set up on West Canada Mountain, in honor of your province.

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=15&Z=18&X=81&Y=753&W=3

I knew there was some rough country there. Some of my ancestors settled at Johnstown, NY just before the Revolution. They weren't Tories, just Scots caught in the middle, but they were forced to leave and settled around Cornwall, Ontario. I checked a map and realized you still can't get from Johnstown to Cornwall in a straight line. They went around by Lake Champlain, got lost, were rescued by Joseph Brant, made it to Montreal, and went upriver to Cornwall.

Bye
Jack

http://public.leginfo.stateny.us/menugetf.cgi

SPONSORS MEMO:
NEW YORK STATE SENATE
INTRODUCER'S MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT
submitted in accordance with Senate Rule VI. Sec 1


BILL NUMBER: S918A

SPONSOR: VOLKER


TITLE OF BILL: An act to amend the environmental conservation law, in
relation to allowing the use of rifles for hunting in certain parts of
the state


PURPOSE:

To allow sportsmen to hunt deer and bear in the southern tier counties
with rifles.


JUSTIFICATION:

There are more deer in New York State than there were 10 years ago.
There are fewer deer hunters than in previous years. Crop damage and
deer and automotive collision is increasing by the numbers and it is
costing New York State taxpayers millions of dollars in damages.
Expanding the law to include hunting with rifles in the southern tier
counties may help control the deer population in those areas.


LEGISLATIVE HISTORY:

2003-04: S.2326-D/A.5443, Passed Senate in 2004.


FISCAL IMPLICATIONS:

None.


EFFECTIVE DATE:
Immediately.

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/environmentdec/2005b/deerseasonchanges070105.html

Deferred Proposal

An earlier proposal to establish a new early, special, antlerless-only muzzleloader season in the Southern Zone was met with considerable opposition. The proposal was intended to enhance and diversify antlerless deer harvests, which are a key component of New York's deer management program. Deer numbers have declined throughout much of the Southern Zone as a result of a number of factors, including two successive harsh winters. Accordingly, this proposal will be deferred until deer numbers recover and the season would have more value as an additional management tool.

So, which is it?

More deer than 10 years ago..............

or

Decline in deer population..........

He is an avid outdoors men and feels and perfers the use of rifles.

I agree that this is probably the only factor he took into consideration when proposing this law. He obviously didn't research it from a conservationists standpoint. As I said earlier........

Taxation Conservation, NOT Environmental Conservation

Sorry shiraz,

S2326 - A5443 both passed the senate last year.they did not have a chance to vote in the assembaly but they did try.Bills s2326 and A5443 were over two years olld and were droped from the roster and were re writen and re introduced as 0918-4853.these older bills had as an justification as you have already pointed out that stated ther is no proff that shotguns are any more safer than rifles and with the safe record we have had in the northern rifle zones there should be know reason to not use rifles in the southern tier. How the info you quoated got put in there is unknown to me.Please feel free to call senator Volcers office and ask them why he introduced the bill.I know what they are going to say.He is an avid outdoors men and feels rifles are justified in the southern Tier.thats what he said when he addressed sportsmen at a convention where he was quoated by the press in 2003I will have to ask you too look at all the other states that are using rifles Including New York.They still have deer there not wiped out I still don`t see how im going to see more big bucks Just becouse I use a rifle and I must also tell you I have never seen a big buck out in the open in new york past the opening morrning there in the thickest stuff they can find.Thats how they get big in the first place.you get proven wrong time and time again but you still keep coming back for a fight coming up with new reasons rifles are unsafe.

You still don`t argue most of the facts you bounce around like my wife did just causing a fight

Riflemen10x

....." The Adeerondack (NPR pronounciation - I kid you not) Park is bigger than Yosemite"
Yes , the Adirondacks are larger than Yosemite- about 45 or 50 times the size of Yosemite, to be a bit more precise.
The Adirondacks are also larger than Rhode Island, and about the same size as Delaware.

http://www.senatorvolker.com/press_archive.story.asp?id=11160

SENATOR DALE M. VOLKER PASSES LEGISLATION TO ALLOW HUNTING ON THE SOUTHERN TIER

Wednesday, June 8, 2005

(Albany, NY) Senator Dale M. Volker (R-I-C, Depew) today passed legislation (S.918), which would allow sportsmen to hunt deer and bear in the southern tier counties with rifles.


"For several years, the growth in the population of deer in the Southern Tier have been profound, to the point that this wildlife management bill has been passed so as to mitigate economic losses to our residents and to save lives as well," said Senator Dale M. Volker. "By allowing rifle hunting for deer and bear in this region of our state, we can humanely lower the deer population as they often die of starvation. It will also prevent human deaths from automobile accidents that have been rising from vehicles hitting deer on our highways, and also see a reduction in the spread of Lyme Disease throughout the State of New York, which is often spread by deer ticks."


Senator Volker’s bill would allow hunters to use rifles during open season for deer and bear in the counties of Allegany, Chautauqua, Chenango, Herkimer, Montgomery, Oneida, Oswego, Otsego, Schoharie and Tioga, as well as certain rural towns on Broome County in those areas east of the Susquehanna River.


There are more deer in New York State than there were 10 years ago and there are fewer deer hunters than in previous years. Crop damage and deer and automotive collision is increasing by significant numbers and it is costing New York State taxpayers millions of dollars in damages. Expanding the law to include hunting with rifles in the Southern Tier counties may help control the deer population in those areas and simultaneously stimulate economic activity for area businesses. Additionally, the firearms that have been traditionally legal for hunting big game have become safer and less damaging to the animal.


This legislation is sponsored in the State Assembly by Assemblywoman Francine DelMonte.

Straight from the "horses mouth". What Senator wouldn't want to pass a bill that not only would save human life, but countless lives of starving deer? As I said before, I'm sure the reason he submitted this bill is because he loves to rifle hunt, but he also knew that that alone wouldn't get the bill passed, so he resorted to the old stand-by scare tactic.

http://www.state.ny.us/governor/press/year05/jan10_1_05.htm

New York State Fatal Crash Data 1995-2003

Year # of Fatal Crashes # of Fatalities

2003 1,351 1,477
2002 1,390 1,509
2001 1,431 1,554
2000 1,358 1,444
1999 1,460 1,585
1998 1,395 1,505
1997 1,488 1,630
1996 1,451 1,590
1995 1,557 1,670

This shows fewer fatal crashes, not more.

Most hunters here in NY I see in the woods can`t hit the broadside of a barn.A 50 yd shot is pushing it.I would have to say mabe 5% of the hunters are able to hit a 6 inch target at 300 yd.I dought the guy`s you talk about from the city will be able to do it from what you say.It takes practice to do that and when they buy a box of shells and a rifle the day before the opener you should feel at ease knowing they are most likely not going to get a deer.Not to mention most of these guy`s will go out and buy the best wizbang magnum in a bolt action and won`t be able to shoot well enough becouse they can`t deal with the recoil.Not to mention how fast do you think these guy`s can operate the bolt to get another shot off.

This is supposed to make me feel safer?

Guy`s in your area are already poaching with rifles so whats the big deal?

This is a wonderful attitude to have. Buglars already steal, so lets make it easier by not locking our doors or windows. What's the big deal?

You don`t have to explane why you have a rifle in your truck if stoped by a cop.Its not against the law to have a rifle in your truck.

It's not the "cops" that I was referring to. In our area there is one "Hard A**" Encon Officer that would have plenty of questions to be answered if he caught you with a rifle and ammo during shotgun season now. It's not illegal to drive around with a compound bow either, but he once made my husband let off his bow when we got stopped on our way bow fishing. I never said it's against the law, it looks suspicious.

y6our not thinking right.and thinking like this is going to make the rest of us miss out on a great opertunity to use rifles.

Rifleman, Your Opinion Is Not The Only Opinion People Should Have. This is America and we all have the right to let our legislators know how we feel about the bills and laws that are proposed. Please do not insult me by suggesting that my way of thinking is not "right" just because it doesn't match up with your way of thinking. "Right" or "Wrong" is a matter of opinion, not fact.

Don`t even get me started on the age thing again.
I wasn't knocking the 12 year old limit, I was just suggesting that maybe some adults should have a little more common sense than a 12 year old (although many do not) Perhaps the class and test should be geared more toward adults, but still open to 12 year olds. If they pass, GREAT. If they don't, let them grow up a little more and try again. The same with the adults.....If they pass, GREAT, if they don't.....let them grow up a little more and try again.

You still don`t argue most of the facts you bounce around like my wife did just causing a fight
I have tried to research and find facts to back up my arguments, and I think I've done a pretty good job doing that, you just want to see no other side but your own. Your name is "RIFLEman" after all. And by the way, congratulations on your divorce (I assume it was a divorce, considering you spoke of your wife in the pasttense. I certainly hope she did not pass on with you speaking so harshly, and if she did, God Bless Her Soul.)

OK, Rifleman - and others.

We argue the issues in a civil and respectful manner. Name calling and flamming ARE NOT permitted on this board. If you can't keep it civil - pack it up.

I gave this some thought. Frankly.... if I had to hunt on 20 acres, I'd use a rifle or nothing at all. Wouldn't be much fun to go to the effort of shooting a deer, and have someone else tag it, one or two properties over.

I'd hunt from an elevated stand and shoot them in the neck, hunt over, tag it and go home. Probably with either my .257 Roberts, or my .30-06, if you want to go further with the example. Accurate, and either will punch through a deer's spine.

Like kdub said, keep it civil, or take it somewhere else.

I just want to be able to use my '92 carbine in .44mag; about the same ballistics as the sabot slugs and probably some of the those gitchy MLs...

A friend in NY just told me Pataki signed the bill today.

Governor George E. Pataki today announced that he has signed into law legislation that will allow the use of rifles to hunt big game in certain counties in Central New York.

Under the new law, hunting regulations in the rural parts of the State's "Southern Zone" will conform to existing regulations that already allow the use of rifles to hunt big game in other parts of Upstate New York within the "Northern Zone."

"Hunters have always played an important role in New York and they are among the safest and most responsible in the nation," Governor Pataki said. "This new law will provide hunters in rural parts of New York's 'Southern Zone' with options during the big game season as other hunters in parts of upstate New York already have. It will also increase safety because rifles are considered to be as safe, and more accurate, than shotguns and other muzzle-loading firearms."

Senator Dale M. Volker said, "I would like to thank Governor Pataki for enacting this common sense approach to humanely thinning out our deer herds, stopping the spread of Lyme Disease in many Southern Tier counties, and allowing sportsmen and sportswomen to have enhanced opportunities to participate in our cultural heritage. For several years, the growth in the population of deer in the Southern Tier has been profound. By allowing rifle hunting for deer and bear in this region of our State, we can humanely lower the deer population and prevent human deaths from automobile accidents that have been rising from vehicles hitting deer on our highways."

Assemblywoman Francine DelMonte said, "There has been an overpopulation of deer and bear in New York for the past several years. As a result, many animals have died of starvation due to a lack of food. This law, which was supported by sportsmen in my district, will give hunters the opportunity to use rifles in eleven upstate counties to humanely lower the wildlife population."

The law, which takes effect immediately, allows rifles to be used during the regular hunting season in the whole counties of Allegany, Cattaraugus, Chenango, Herkimer, Montgomery, Oneida, Oswego, Otsego, Schoharie, and Tioga, and the portion of Broome County east of the Susquehanna River.

The use of rifles for big game hunting is already allowed in all counties of the Northern Zone, and certain counties in the eastern portion of the Southern Zone. Rifles are considered to be as safe, and more accurate, than shotguns and muzzle-loading firearms.

Prior to enactment of this law, hunters in these Southern Zone areas could only use pistols, shotguns, muzzle-loading firearms, or long bows to hunt deer or bear in the regular season. Since rifles are preferred by many hunters, it is expected the law will increase hunter satisfaction in these counties.

Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) Acting Commissioner Denise M. Sheehan said, "New York's hunters are true conservationists, and their efforts are essential in the proper management of wildlife in the Empire State. This legislation will increase opportunities for sportsmen and women in the field, and should lead to greater success for hunters in the Southern Zone."

Howard Cushing, President of the New York State Conservation Council, said, "The New York State Conservation Council is pleased to see this important piece of legislation passed. Hunter safety will always remain a top concern of the Council. We hope the passage of this legislation will help to act as a better game management tool and provide increased hunting opportunities for New York's sportsmen."

IP:

I used to haul freight thru upper and lower New York when I was trucking. Sure were lots of dead deer in and on the road sides.

Sure a shame to wast them that way. For sure that is beautiful country out there. Slightly over populated for this Idaho boy, but there were some nice horns on some of the deer I saw.

Glad to see state officials with the attitude those folks are showing.

Posted on 09/06/2005 10:33:19 PM PDT by neverdem

News Outdoors Reporter

Hunting for big game with a rifle becomes legal in parts of Western New York this deer and bear seasons. Rifle hunting options will open to hunters in 10 counties along New York State's Southern Tier.

After decades of proposed rifle bills in the Department of Environmental Conservation Southern Zone, some restricting caliber sizes, Senator Dale M. Volker, R-Depew, saw his bill S918-A successfully through the New York State Senate. Assemblywoman Francine DelMonte, D-Niagara Falls, sponsored the bill as A4852-A in the Assembly. The bill met with great acceptance, with a 58-2 approval in the Senate and 177 ayes and just 17 nays in the Assembly. Gov. Pataki received the bill Aug. 18 and officially signed it into law on Thursday.

Arguments about public safety and caliber sizes did not emerge in this round of voting. In Pennsylvania, a recent introduction of rifle hunting in shotgun-only areas near Philadelphia saw a reduction in shooting incidents from 25 to 14 for newly opened suburban areas. Western New York hunters must determine county line areas before heading to their favored hunt haunts this season. While this bill poses an "Effective Date: Immediately," Chautauqua County had withdrawn inclusion when the bill was first framed this year.

Effective this hunting season, hunters can use all centerfire rifles when big game hunting for deer and bear in Allegany, Cattaraugus, Chenango, Herkimer, Montgomery, Oneida, Oswego, Otsego, Schoharie and Tioga counties, as well as selected areas of Broome County.

Hunting- and gun-related bills had not been received with much favor in Albany in recent years. During a Safari Club International visit of state chapters to legislative chambers in 2003, various SCI members made appointments with key legislators.

The most recent gun-related bill that reached the governor's desk was the Eddy Eagle (gun safety program) bill. It was vetoed after opposition emerged with the disclosure the National Rifle Association sponsored the Eddy Eagle program.

Volker had introduced this proposed rifle bill in six previous sessions of the senate. This time, SCI support helped introduce and explain the advantages of the Volker-DelMonte bill. Volker said, "By allowing deer and bear hunting in this region of our state, we can humanely lower the deer population as they often die of starvation. It will also prevent human deaths from automobile accidents that have been rising from vehicles hitting deer on our highways, and also see a reduction in the spread of Lyme disease, . . . which is often spread by deer ticks."

For the average area hunter, this comes as a welcome option. "I can finally take my .270 out of mothballs," said Robert Hauser of Lancaster, a shotgun hunter who heads out to fill the freezer with venison each fall season. "Since I quit going to Pennsylvania in 1978, the rifle has been out of service."

Mike Shevlin, immediate past president of the Central and WNY Chapter of SCI, said, "All the guys I hunt with in Allegany County say "Oh, man, I can't wait to get out with my rifle.' " Shevlin prefers his flat-shooting .257 Roberts, a caliber with which he has taken five western big-game animals.

"Until now, I've only been able to use it here on varmints," he said, "and last year it took five foxes."

Now, he can hunt the Southern Tier east of Chautauqua County and south of Erie and Genesee counties within an hour drive of home.

e-mail: wille@pce.net
TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: New York

amazingly good news that a common sense law would be passed that would support hunting.

My view of the northeast is tainted by living out west all my life in and around the red states. My daughter lives in Boston and is surrounded by liberals. It drives her nuts.

It strikes me as odd that states with a manufacturering base that still includes the firearms industry have such draconian laws against possession and carry of firearms...Vermont and New Hampshire excepted...guess I'm speaking of Mass, Conn and New York particularly.

It's like the Canadian company in Ontario that makes 1911 clones that no one in Canada can own anymore.

Must be a disconnect somewhere...Maybe you guys can explain it to me.

New york has some real strict gun laws for handguns but compared to New Jersey where we had to lock our shotguns in the trunk of the car and the ammo in the glovebox to be legal.I realy like being able to put a unloaded gun in the back seat and having the ammo on the dash and not worring about going to jail if im pulled over by the law.it took a long time to get the feeling that i was doing somthing wrong to go away.The ferther you get away from NYC the laws get more sane.Thank God.

How did it go guy`s,

Im not trying to kick a dead horse but would realy like to know how it went for everyone that took a rifle out for the first time.Did it change the way you hunted?was it better or worse?how was the new saterday opener?where there more people in the woods?I would just like to see if everyones fears came true.i must admit as the opener got closer I was a bit afraid that there would be mass shootings in the deer woods this year but so far I have not read about them in the paper so far.We will just have to wait and see.

I had 4 guy`s on ATV come into my area 15 minutes into first shooting light and made all kind of racket.One parked 50 yds away and walked right past me.Im sure this would have happend if the opener was on a Monday.But I did hear a lot more shooting than I have in the last two years.sunday I hunted in a rifle zone and caried my Marlin 336 in 35 remington and what a joy it was to carry.I didn`t get any shots but it was nice to get an old friend out in the woods again.

Riflemen10x

I'll chime in. I already have a post under the Marlin 336 thread but I'll expand on it here. Long post comin'

I'll start be saying that I was really excited about using a rifle to deer hunt for the first time. It brought a little extra anticipation to the day.

Like Rifleman10X, I carried a 336 in 35Rem. I did hunt a little differently knowing I had some extra range to work with. I ended up overlooking a long ridge and had about 150 yd view. I had a doe walk out 80 or so yards away. Usually I hunt with a 44 Ruger Redhawk and would not have attempted the shot, would have tried to get closer. But, with the Marlin in my hands it was an easy shot. 1 shot, 1 doe in the freezer. I'm lovin' the 35 Rem. No pics though.

As for the Saturday opener, it saved my opening day. I've missed the last 2 opening days because of my work schedule so I was as happy as a pig in mud hearing that deer season was opening on a Saturday. I didn't see any larger crowds though. Didn't hear any more gunfire than usual either. I was quite surprised by that. In fact, I only heard 2 other gunshots that sounded to me to be rifle reports. Most of the "crew" that hunts near me brought out their old trusty 12 ga. Where we are, range is short so there is probably no disadvantage to staying with the shotgun.

Like Rifleman, I was a little concerned about how safe it would be. I do find myself giving orange vests and known tree stand locations a wider berth but I think I am probably being overly careful. Not that there is anything wrong with that!

On a funny note, I know 2 hunters that were using bolt actions for the first time in the woods and missed their chance because they closed their bolt on an empty chamber! Apparently both of them charged the magazine and managed to close the bolt without picking up a cartridge. Nothing worse than hearing "click" when you pull the trigger!! It sure does pay to become intimately familiar with your hunting gun.

And Rifleman, that Marlin is a dream to carry around all day, isn't it? I actually preferred carrying it to carrying my Redhawk! It is so well balanced that carrying, changing from hand-to-hand, etc is almost effortless. And for me, it is a great transition from a revolver because I am so used to dealing with cocking-uncocking a hammer. It is second nature.

How about anyone else's experiences?

Hi Guy`s,

Your right about the Marlin.its a dream to cary and I like it a lot better than any of my shotguns for big game.Im suprized not more people chimed in about there rifle hunting went this year.I had to work more than usual and only got out three times.Once with a rifle.heres a write up on the safe year we had even with all the rifles out there this year.would still like to hear from New York hunters that got to carry a rifle afield for the first time and how it went.

New York Outdoor News News

2005 may be N.Y. hunting’s safest

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 3:51 PM CST

Staff report

Albany — Preliminary reports are showing the 2005 deer hunting season to be perhaps the safest in New York history.

DEC Sportsmen Education Administrator Wayne Jones reported late last month that 14 deer hunters were injured in the recent deer season, lower than the 2004 record low of 18 and well below the five-year average of 27 injuries.

Three hunters died in deer hunting accidents, including one of a self-inflicted wound. Two others were accidentally shot by members of their hunting party.

Jones stressed that the numbers were preliminary “and only include information we have in our files as of the date of the report (Dec. 22).”

DEC’s figures, too, included no specific information about the nature of the hunting accidents or the individuals involved.
Still, the overall numbers appeared encouraging in comparison with previous seasons, and at a time when some sportsmen were concerned that legalizing rifles for deer hunting in several Southern Tier counties could create safety issues.

DEC officials said previously it appears none of the accidents was related specifically to rifle use.

“There were no rifles involved in injury incidents in the new rifle areas to date,” the report indicated. “However, one property damage accident in Cattaraugus County involved a rifle.”

There was another reported incident in which a house was struck by a rifle bullet, but the homeowner indicated it likely occurred during an attempt to shoot a dog from the road and did not take place while someone was attempting to harvest game.

In addition, one accident was reported in Chenango County, newly approved for rifle use, but it involved a shotgun rather than a rifle.

New York’s deer season essentially ended Dec. 20, with the exception of some special regulation hunting in Westchester and Suffolk counties.

In addition to the 14 deer hunting accidents, including the three fatalities, there were nine injuries during small game season, one of which involved a fatal turkey hunting incident last spring. The preliminary count of 23 hunting injuries for the 2005 season is the lowest on record, officials said.

“Barring an unusually large number of small game hunting-related shooting incidents during the last days of December, 2005 will be the safest hunting year un the history of New York State,” Jones said in the report.

Heading into the 2004 season, deer hunting injuries, since 1993, had never been below 20 and were as high as 37 in 2002. Small game hunting injuries never dipped into single digits until the 2005 season, having been as high as 43 in 1993, 42 in 1998, and a low of 12 in 2003 until the 2005 season.

The tentative 2005 total of 23 hunting injuries is well below the 2003 record low of 32. Total hunting injuries had topped 60 four times since 1993 — 67 (1993), 62 (1995), 64 (1998) and 61 (2002).

The four hunting fatalities in 2005 is equal to the average over the past four years, DEC official said. Three deer hunting-related deaths this past season is also parallels the five-year average of three fatalities.

Print this story Email this story

Well Rifleman, it looks like it is just you and me here.

I am happy to see that NY safety records improved even with the addition of several rifle counties. Back when I had time, I was a volunteer Sportsman Education Program instructor and we got safety reports sent to us regularly to use in our lesson plans. They included all of the details surrounding each hunting incident. It was great learning material and gave the students a real life impact to careless gun handling. I am happy to see that the safety stats continue to show improvement. I know that I hardly saw any news of hunting "accidents" in the paper this year. I can't help but think that it is in large part attributed to the decline in number of hunters each year. Having said that, I know that the safety instructors do a great job and must be proud of these stats. Rightly so. The hunters afield should be proud too!!

I really wanted to post about this but unfortunately I did not get a chance to hunt NY this year. First time I missed the opener in 30 years, maybe next year. I'm really happy to hear about the good safety record.

Good news! I missed Adeerondacks this year too...

I hunt in the southern tier of New York and shot a fine 8 Pt. on Nov.30. I for one am very happy with the new rifle law. With the use of common sence, as with any firearm, the risk of being shot is remote. What a rifle does for a southern tier hunter is he is now able to hunt from the edge of woodlot and observe a field or fields. This was not available before with a shotgun. With a rifle you have lots of observation time and should be able to see what is beyond your target

Wow, I read all 6 pages of this thread dating back to 2004. I'm a recent implant to the Southern Tier, I live in Tioga County in the thriving megaopolis of Owego. Outside of Owego proper it's mostly farm country. There are open fields but it is far from flat land. I have 32 acres and am surrounded by woods and farm fields. A rifle does buy you the advantage Allegany mentioned. In the heavy woods a 75 yard shot is a long one. Most of the time I carry my Guide Gun as it is the most handy in heavy cover. It's like having a slug gun on steroids. No reports of shooting incidents in the last two years since I've been hunting in NY. It would be a challenge to get a bullet to carry a long distance given the local terrain so I don't see the big deal about allowing a centerfire rifle. I've been out with my 7mm Rem Mag and 25-06 too, both capable of reaching out and touching something if needed but I knew when I went out that kind of shot might be needed. Like was stated over and over in this thread, responsible hunters is the key to incident free seasons. FWIW, there is no shortage of deer around here, they are the most plentiful mamal we have. It's not uncommon to see more deer than birds on a junket through the woods.

Anybody shoot at the Tioga County Sportsman Association on Charmichael Road? I'm always looking to share an outting with a fellow shooter.

Good news is that the season ended with no shooting injuries in any of the 3 counties, just one incident where some bozo put a bullet thru a house. I was thrilled to be able to use my old 270 around here for the first time on deer & was lucky enough to take 2 with it.