I have received some E-mail concerning my stated erroneous Biblical beliefs in an earlier post. Time and space does not allow me to debunk each and every one of them in one post, so I will randomly select one for our attention.

Let’s look at my statement that neither Elijah nor Enoch went to Heaven to be with God.

First, Elijah:

The Bible states that Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind. It also states that he was taken up to heaven. The Bible speaks of three heavens, (1) the air where the birds fly, (2) the space where the stars and planets are, (3) where God dwells. Elijah was taken up to the first and set down somewhere else…he was removed. This is further evidenced by the fact that ten years later, he wrote a letter to the wicked king Jehoram, admonishing him for his evil deeds.

Now for Enoch:

Most people who believe that Enoch went to Heaven point to the verse that portrays him on the mountain with Moses and Jesus. BUT, if you will read closely, you will discover that this was a VISION. A vision is a Supernaturally induced picture. Matthew 17:9 says “Tell the vision to no man”.

Now, if you doubt me, let’s look at what Jesus, Himself, said about the matter. “No man hath ascended up to Heaven but He that came down from Heaven.” John 3:13. Now why would Jesus say that? He ought to know as He had just come from there.

There is further proof, but I will not get into it at this time.

I commend all that take issue with my statements. My purpose in stating these is to get each of you to read your Bibles and to question those who may mislead you.

I have received some E-mail concerning my stated erroneous Biblical beliefs in an earlier post. Time and space does not allow me to debunk each and every one of them in one post, so I will randomly select one for our attention.

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Now, if you doubt me, let’s look at what Jesus, Himself, said about the matter. “No man hath ascended up to Heaven but He that came down from Heaven.” John 3:13. Now why would Jesus say that? He ought to know as He had just come from there.

There is further proof, but I will not get into it at this time.

I commend all that take issue with my statements. My purpose in stating these is to get each of you to read your Bibles and to question those who may mislead you.

Let us view this in its proper context.

Jesus was answering Nicodemus' question in John 3:9 "How can these things be?" by saying in effect that, Jesus was not a man taken up to Heaven and taught these things, but rather, that he came directly from Heaven. Indeed no man had ever gone into Heaven and returned.

In John 3, Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus that no one has or will enter into Heaven (God's domain) unless he is born of the spirit (becomes spirit). This will not happen until the resurrections. Until that time, to quote Christ, "And no one has gone up to Heaven, except the Son of Man, who came down from Heaven." That cannot be made any clearer.

Man, in his quest for immortality on his own terms, will read and teach many false doctrines. This teaching (that these two above mentioned men went to Heaven) goes back to the teachings of the "big mother church" and has it's roots in paganism.

In John 3, Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus that no one has or will enter into Heaven (God's domain) unless he is born of the spirit (becomes spirit). This will not happen until the resurrections. Until that time, to quote Christ, "And no one has gone up to Heaven, except the Son of Man, who came down from Heaven." That cannot be made any clearer.

Man, in his quest for immortality on his own terms, will read and teach many false doctrines. This teaching (that these two above mentioned men went to Heaven) goes back to the teachings of the "big mother church" and has it's roots in paganism.

I am sorry Loader but I cannot agree with your interpretation of this passage. Jesus is plainly claiming His Divinity in this passage. This Divinity being the explanation for the truth of his teachings.

There were many at the time who believed that Moses was actually drawn up into Heaven to receive the law. Jesus is saying no to this belief, that he, Jesus, is the only one to have come from Heaven.

As I said, there would be many who would wish to argue with me and I don't wish to debate. I have stated a Biblical truth.

Moses being drawn up to Heaven to recieve the law is nowhere mentioned in the book of John.

Now, if you will excuse me...............

Loader, you sound like a "soul sleeper."

This is my first post since joining the board. I just want to say that I am a believer and also a big gun enthusiast.
I find this thread rather interesting. I really try not to get too technical concerning the word and just try to take it as a babe. It's more simple and less confusing. I feel there are bigger issues in life than trying to disect the word of God to the point where it causes division within the body.

that is all

jr

Gen 5:21-24 "When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."

Heb 11: 5 "By faith Enoch was taken from life, so that he did not experience death, he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."

As it was written about Adam's decendents through Noah, when each one is accounted, each of their ages are written at the time of their first born sons, also that they had other sons and daughters and how long they lived. For each it is written "and then he died." except for Enoch. Enoch had such a special relationship with God that He could not bear to have Enoch go through the experience of death.

1 Kings 2:11 "As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and seperated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

You are misinterpreting the meaning of heaven if you say that God merely dumped a faithful servant to make way for his replacement. Elijah was taken into heaven without dying.

Jehoram, King of Judah, lasted but 8 years on the throne. Kings don't retire. They die in office, so to speak. Elijah's ministry transfered to Elisha about the time Jehoram's reign ended. Letters would not have been sent either way between the two ten years after Elijah's chariot ride to heaven.

Enoch and Elijah were the only two recorded in the Bible to be taken into heaven in bodily form without experiencing death. Make no mistake about it. Jesus returned to heaven in bodily form after his ressurection from death.

Mat 17:3,9 "Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.,,, As they were coming down the mountian, Jesus instructed them, 'Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of God has been raised from the dead.'"

Luke 9:30-31 "Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splender, talking to Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment in Jerusalem."

It was not a "vision", they were there with Jesus.

The tower of Babel; Gen 11:4 " Then they said, 'Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we can make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the earth.'"

Before I take issue with the assertion that the tower of Babel was built to survive a worldwide flood (and so soon after God's covenent with Noah), I will say that I had believed the tower was being built so that man could could climb right into heaven where God dwells. In reality, they were building the tower as a monument to their own greatness, to the people themselves, rather than as a monument to God. This act was also in defiance of God's command that they repopulate and fill the earth. They intended to stay in the plain of Shinar.

fivequarter, you should study the Biblical meaning of "translated". These two men were translated. If you will notice, "translated" has two meanings. One meaning applies to Elijah and the other to Enoch. Enoch was taken and buried as Moses was taken and buried. Elijah was removed....to another location.

King Jehoram had a son who began to rule along with him during the sixth year of his reign. The son's name was also Jehoram. The letter of II Chronicles 21: 12-15 was written to him.

One must study secular history along with his Bible in order to gain a true understanding.

I will gladly discuss this subject, but I will not debate it.

This is my first post since joining the board. I just want to say that I am a believer and also a big gun enthusiast.
jr

Welcome to the board Jonny Ringo. Are you a big enthusiast of guns or an enthusiast of big guns? Say hello to us on the general discussion forum and tell us more about yourself.
God bless you mate. Just continue to have joy and peace in believing and don't get too worked up by some of the wilder posts on this forum.
Richard

loader,

Please help me here.

Define "discuss"

Define "debate"

scotty

Well, scotty, it's like this: Back before the South Carolina Democratic primary all the candidates were calling President Bush a liar and a crook....that was a discussion. Now, back before the Iowa primary, they were calling each other liars and crooks.....that's a debate.:-)

If someone wants to "discuss" they will not take a contrary position and offer no evidence other than "here's what I believe". One who does that does not want to discuss....they want a fight. I love intelligent discussions; there is no such thing as an intelligent fight.

My purpose in presenting Biblical fallacies is to get people to read their Bibles and see for themselves what the truth really is. We have been deceived since childhood about what the Bible is trying to tell us. The first I remember is seeing a picture of Christ with shoulder length hair. I guess the second was being told that Noah took the animals on the Ark in pairs. Another was "Eat it, it's good for you" when referring to some foods. The Bible states otherwise. These things got my curiousity up and I have devoted over half of my life searching for the truth. The things that I have found, I wish to share. I am prepared to offer proof of all my statements. I will not waste my time "arguing". If you don't believe me or don't want to believe me, ignore me. My feelings will not be hurt.

If you feel this forum will be richer for my absence, I will leave.

If you feel this forum will be richer for my absence, I will leave.

Well I just joined this forum and I would like you to stay. I like your style and think you have much to offer.
I don't get wrapped around axel concerning theology but do find the different views of interest.

Welcome to the board Jonny Ringo. Are you a big enthusiast of guns or an enthusiast of big guns?

Both, actually. I just bought a .444 Marlin barrel for my Encore.
Thanks. :)

One must study secular history along with his Bible in order to gain a true understanding.

This is simply not true.

A true understanding concerning the word of God is gained only through the word of God itself, and the guidance of the Spirit of God. We need nothing other than God's word.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

2 Tim.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

BTW, I noticed that you did not answer my question.

I have searched this thread from top to bottom and back again. I cannot find a post where you have asked me aquestion, TPM. Maybe it didn't post???

Sorry, my mistake. I did not pose it as a question. Do you believe in soul sleep?

Loader 3009,

My question was not posed to prompt you to leave.

I did feel that a definition was in order since you said you would do one but not the other. I hoped that by clarifying this, that you and TPM could stay on the same sheet of music, which would be good for all who are reading with interest.

Scotty

3009, have you read the original hebrew or greek? i haven't, but it would interest me to know what the exact greek and hebrew say, since the original languages have words which nuance cannot be quite accurately be captured in english.

I must have been asleep when they taught about "soul sleep" in Sunday School. Any help???


Bill

I have never heard the term,either. I assume it is used to describe a religious group or sect that believe that the "soul" sleeps until judgement day.

Assuming this, allow me to preface my answer with a few statements.

In respect to "soul", the Bible does not say that you have an immortal soul. What it does say is that you ARE a soul....a living being. Animals are even called souls. "Soul" is also used to mean life.

The term "sleep" is used throughout both the Old Testament and the New as another term for the state that we call death. Jesus used the term, himself, in describing the state of both Lazarus and the little girl that he was to raise from the DEAD. Yes, they were DEAD. Lazarus was decomposing. And, BTW, neither had "gone to Heaven". The notion that one goes to Heaven when he dies is older that Christianity. It goes back to the times of the Egyptians and the Babylonians. But that's another story.

So, TPM, to answer your question, NO. I do not believe that the soul sleeps. I believe that the body is dead until it is resurrected at it's appointed time. If you or anybody else "went to Heaven" when you or they died, there would be no need for the resurrections.

Thanks for asking, as this needs to be told.

3009, have you read the original hebrew or greek? i haven't, but it would interest me to know what the exact greek and hebrew say, since the original languages have words which nuance cannot be quite accurately be captured in english.

jb12string, I regret that I wasted my youth chasing women instead of studying Greek and Hebrew. If I could do it over again........well, being human, I probably do the same.

I must depend on other sources for the translations. You are right about many of the words not translating well into our native tongue. English is not an exacting language. And in many cases the translator's prejudice shows. As Greek has no punctuation, there have been several mis-translations which changed the entire meanings of some passages. I will not get into these at this time.

Further, the King James Bible is difficult to understand as it was written in a language that we no longer speak. It was a beautiful language of the times, but comes across today as being rather stilted.

3009, i have a 2 questions that are kind of off topic 1. Who is Jesus
2. How is man redeemed

jb12string,

Hey there neighbor. There is a private message waiting for you.

Bill

ps... If nobody else knows :D I know the answer to your questions.

3009, i have a 2 questions that are kind of off topic 1. Who is Jesus
2. How is man redeemed
Answering your questions here would constitute thread-drift. I would prefer to answer in a new thread as your first question has an answer that may shock you. I will endeavor to answer both in the same thread, but maybe not in one post.

3009, have you read the original hebrew or greek? i haven't, but it would interest me to know what the exact greek and hebrew say, since the original languages have words which nuance cannot be quite accurately be captured in english.

You asked about the original languages of what we call The Bible.Not that easy.There isnt just one manuscript(version).And we dont use all of the ones available to us.Those same manuscripts have been canonized (picked thru)before.The ones in your Bible were the ones choozen the last time.Ther are many other manuscripts we (they)discarded.Ouestions.

I have never heard the term,either. I assume it is used to describe a religious group or sect that believe that the "soul" sleeps until judgement day.

Assuming this, allow me to preface my answer with a few statements.

In respect to "soul", the Bible does not say that you have an immortal soul. What it does say is that you ARE a soul....a living being. Animals are even called souls. "Soul" is also used to mean life.

The term "sleep" is used throughout both the Old Testament and the New as another term for the state that we call death. Jesus used the term, himself, in describing the state of both Lazarus and the little girl that he was to raise from the DEAD. Yes, they were DEAD. Lazarus was decomposing. And, BTW, neither had "gone to Heaven". The notion that one goes to Heaven when he dies is older that Christianity. It goes back to the times of the Egyptians and the Babylonians. But that's another story.

So, TPM, to answer your question, NO. I do not believe that the soul sleeps. I believe that the body is dead until it is resurrected at it's appointed time. If you or anybody else "went to Heaven" when you or they died, there would be no need for the resurrections.

Thanks for asking, as this needs to be told.


Do you have a Strongs Concordance, if so check out the differnt words we translate soul.People commonly inter change soul and spirit , they should not.
In my small library are all the tools needed to translate the Paleo Hebrew,Aramic and Greek manuscripts including the ones we dont use.

This is simply not true.

A true understanding concerning the word of God is gained only through the word of God itself, and the guidance of the Spirit of God. We need nothing other than God's word.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

2 Tim.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

BTW, I noticed that you did not answer my question.

This is true as stated by the two Jewish men you quote.However you should not remove it from its time and place.Scripture to these two Jewish men is the Torah.(old testament ?)Agreed.

jb12string, I regret that I wasted my youth chasing women instead of studying Greek and Hebrew. If I could do it over again........well, being human, I probably do the same.

I must depend on other sources for the translations. You are right about many of the words not translating well into our native tongue. English is not an exacting language. And in many cases the translator's prejudice shows. As Greek has no punctuation, there have been several mis-translations which changed the entire meanings of some passages. I will not get into these at this time.

Further, the King James Bible is difficult to understand as it was written in a language that we no longer speak. It was a beautiful language of the times, but comes across today as being rather stilted.

Can I assume that you refer to the AV(1611)and not the revised version,what most people call a King James Bible.
I hope I havent missed any one and have not come across as a jerk,I just would like to have discussion.

I must have been asleep when they taught about "soul sleep" in Sunday School. Any help???


Bill


Almost forgot Bill, I believe soul sleep is a catholic thing.

In John 3, Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus that no one has or will enter into Heaven (God's domain) unless he is born of the spirit (becomes spirit). This will not happen until the resurrections. Until that time, to quote Christ, "And no one has gone up to Heaven, except the Son of Man, who came down from Heaven." That cannot be made any clearer.

Man, in his quest for immortality on his own terms, will read and teach many false doctrines. This teaching (that these two above mentioned men went to Heaven) goes back to the teachings of the "big mother church" and has it's roots in paganism.

Please do not take offense,I'm having a hard time decerning which bible you quote from.I agree that "born again"is misleading,it should read born from above.Next,Kingdom of God and Heaven the same thing?Kingdom of God (where God rules)will be on Earth not in Heaven.
Got to go to work,let us continue this.

You and I are on the same page, Mesquite.....but maybe different translations. Try the NIV or the ASV.

John 3

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

You are correct in stating that Heaven or God's dwelling place will be on Earth....but at this time it is somewhere else. According to the Bible, this will be called the Kingdom of Heaven and New Jerusalem will be it's capitol.

No, not agreed. The quotes are from the NT and are equally scripture, these men being used by God to write it.

No, not agreed. The quotes are from the NT and are equally scripture, these men being used by God to write it.
No arguement from me ,I also hold the new testament very close.I'm saying that the writers of it did'nt.Scripture-1124 graphe.From 1125;a document,i.e. holy writ.Messiah was an old testament teaching,they taught Jesus from their scriptures.Our gospels are what they testified(eye witness account in light of their scriptures)I believe them.Our epistles are letter to groupes of believers for guidence(I value their opinion on subjects also,they were babtized with the Holy Spirit ,good leadership.

No, not agreed. The quotes are from the NT and are equally scripture, these men being used by God to write it.
Perhaps I can be more clear.Paul was certainly used by God to take the news of Messiah to people and the help them understand and deal with events in life,your pastor does the same,so do you.please don't misunderstand.Paul would explain in his letters if he was lead or God to say something or its just good seems right to behave in a certain way.I do not take them lightly.They are letters written by men called of God.Your pastor is called of God,his opinion(understanding)should be important to you.I understand that the original twelve were probally closer to and understood better than us but the call is the same,it has'nt changed,men are called to build his church.I hope I am understood better.