If anyone is looking for a mild, economical load for the 30-30 I've recently discovered the virtues of AA#2 Imp. and have found that 7.0 to 7.5 grains under 311410 (about 128 grains in my alloy) delivers very consistent results. This powder doesn't seem to be dependent on its position in the case when ignited and at the above charges, 311410 is hurled from a 20" bbl at 1300 to 1400fps. Recoil in the M94 Carbine is so light your eye never leaves the front sight, yet the load would have enough power for small game hunting. I tried to retrieve a bullet yesterday and shot one into four 2x4's at 25 yards which failed to stop it.

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Just put that in my "Gotta try that one" list. Guess I'll have to try the 311 316 too! ;)

C1PNR,

I wouldn't know where to get a new 311316 these days but I have been thinking about trying 311359 in the 30-30 only because it kinda looks like a faster version of 311410. Nice thing about 410 is that it's a plain base design that works really well at 1300 to 1400fps in the 30-30. The next time I load 410 I may do 15 rounds each with 7.0, 7.5 and 8.0 grains of #2 just to see if accuracy starts to fall apart after 1400fps. Then again, I may just break down and order a 311359 in order to step things up a bit with AA#2. BTW, I've had good luck with 410 and #2 all the way down to 5 grains for 1100fps. Your results may vary... I'm using a little harder alloy than Lyman#2 and a homemade lube.

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Fourty Four,

I've been using 12 and 13 grains of H 4227, Win 6 1/2 116 Primers, and the 311 359 in my GI 30 Carbine. Cycles the action fine and shoots great! ;)

In addition to the new (to me) 30-30, I'll try some of these in my 99 Savage in 300 Savage. I'm a little leary of the pointed boolit in the tube magazine of the '94, but that Savage has a rotary. :D

Are you running those pointed boolits through the magazine? Does maybe the low velocity result in such low recoil you don't have to worry about it?

I cast from wheel weights resulting in a relatively hard product and will try some recently acquired FWFL for lube.

C1PNR,

It's hard for me to honestly say what's safe and what's not in a tubular magazine since I've only been shooting such rifles/carbines since '99. I am aware of others that shoot 311644 from M94's at full power with rounds loaded in the magazine; however, that is a practice which concerns me. Regarding 311410, I never intended to load more than two in the magazine with an empty chamber; however the recoil forces generate by 7 grains of #2 may be so low that it's not a concern. Actually, I'm also concerned about the possible forces on the primers due to the magazine spring alone when a round is lifted up by the carrier and the remaining 5 are popped reward. This is one of the reasons why I shortened my magazine spring somewhat.

That said, I will be shooting 311644 from my 30-30 soon enough but before I start loading up the tube with those pointy rounds I'll convince myself through testing that it's safe. Ya know a magazine can be detonated with a flat nose bullet too... I think Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore can attest to that. I read somewhere that a round of his 45-70 ammo detonated a forward round while in a Marlin magazine. I don't think anyone was hurt, fortunately. I do think we need to remember that when Winchester got started building repeaters, cartridge ammo wasn't generating recoil levels equivalent to a 12 gauge shotgun.

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[have been shooting some Accurate No. 2 in the .30-30 and the .30-30 Improved.
In the standard .30-30, a Winchester 16" Trapper, using the Lyman 311291 188 grains lubed sized and gas checked. 3.5 grains gets 618 fps with amazing accuracy. You can see the bullet holes appear in the paper, this rifle has a forward mount 2.5X scope.

In the .30-30 Improved, a 20" Marlin 336. The same Lyman 311291 with 3.5 grains of Accurate No. 2 gets 626 fps. Again with amazing accuracy.

Greg Mushial has changed my thinking about light cast bullet loads with fast powders. I am now prepared to try the same load without the gas check and tumble lubed with Lee liquid Alox. This is very interesting.

Changing the subject to pointed bullets in tubular magazines get a copy of the 2003 Gun digest and read the article on this subject. A very interesting test.

I do not want to revisit the arguments about Marlin .45-70 rifles and wide meplat bullets. I do believe however, the magazine tube "detonations" were more a result of the design of the rifle allowing the last cartridge to cock in the magazine tube which put the meplat edge against the primer. I shoot a Marlin Guide Gun and have no concern over such things. I do tend to shoot cast bullets that are a little softer than other shooters prefer. I prefer my .45-70 bullets to be between 10 and 14 bhn.

Here is a link to Greg's site.

http://www.gmdr.com/

Yes, that was what Tim said, the Marlins let the 'last' (closest to the receiver) cartridge sit in the tube a bit sideways and the very corner of the meplat caught the primer of the bullet ahead of it.

Buffalo Bore solved the problem by setting primers (and primer pockets of course) a bit deeper in the brass.

Yes, I think that Starline changed all of their .45-70 brass. i have not measured any of it yet though.

I have had good luck with both AA #2 and AA #5 with the Lyman 311042 bullet. I'm glad to hear others are experiencing similar good results with other cast bullets.

Frankly, I just tried the powders as an experiment, but was amazed at the accuracy and low extreme spreads in velocity.

Slim - I've tried this bullet with and without gas check, and at these low velocities either way works equally well.

EDIT - 311041, not 311042! Sorry!!

IDShooter,
Thats what Greg has been doing. He has shot some very small groups from lever actions using Oregon Trail bullets without the gas checks. This bullet is similar to Lymans 311041. Based on Greg's suggestions a friend of mine has had some very good results with these bullets in his heavy barrel Remington 700 in .308.
Greg also uses Hodgdon titewad. I cannot find it here but have used Alliant Bullseye. My results while good are not as good as others have had. When I can get some titewad I'll report on that. Using Accurate No. 2 I have reduced my extreme velocity spreads by more than one half over Alliant Unique and IMR 4227. I have been slow to catch on to all this but have to say that it has been working very well for me.

Wow... if one desires input around here all one needs to do is spike their posts with a little controversy :-)

I really didn't feel the details to Buffalo Bore's mishap were appropriate to the thread, but I'm glad William brought up bullet hardness as a variable in magazine detonation. My point was simply that tubular magazines in lever action rifles can and do explode; therefore, we need to be careful and exercise good common sense. Variables like high primers and hard bullets in heavy recoiling lever guns should be obvious recipes for disaster. What would be of interest to me is empirical data (in ftlbs/square inch??) indicating how much force is required to set off various primers. Obviously, even the venerable Lyman 311041 has a meplat smaller than the diameter of a large rifle primer yet this particular bullet has been deemed safe for tubular magazines over the decades. However, is 311041 really all that safe if one were to concoct a load for the .307 Winchester (in a Big Bore 94) that drove a linotype bullet to 2600fps using a case full of ball powder?

Thanks to all for their input on AA#2 which in case you're not aware, is available on the surplus market for about 10 to 11 bucks a pound.

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Correction - I have been using Lyman 311041, not 311042 as previously stated. Sorry!

That's why it pays to be attentive and use information only after processing it for yourself! :)

Forty Four
Several interesting topics rolling along here at once!
I erred above. The Gun digest with the tube magazine test is the 2002 issue. the artical is: "Tubular Magazines... Are Safe". This was written by R. W. Ballou. This is a very interesting articale that tests many odf the points you have brought up. It is very difficult for one person to run a thorough test. Expensive too! This one answers a lot of questions.
I have used the round nose 311291 in the .307 at 2,000 fps without difficulty. My bullets are a little softer than most though.

I shot Accurate N0. 2 in my 1903As Springfield this weekend with the 311291. Wind gusting to 25 mph and I was not happy with the groups. Velocity ran in the 400 to 450 fps range using loads of 2.9 and 3.4 grains. Low extreme spreads. This is an interesting powder.

Slim,

No.2 is indeed a very interesting powder and versatile too! I'm going to try 8 grains behind 311410 next time out just to see what happens as this little plain base approaches 1500fps. Too bad I can't find a funnel that'll fit inside a .30 case neck though. As you've probably noticed, the particles of No.2 are so small that they can leak through the juncture of the powder funnel and case mouth! Guess I'm gonna have to make a No.2 funnel myself!

Would it be possible for you to post the article you're referring to from the 2002 GD?

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Forty Four, i'm not comfortable scanning that recent an artical. Our public Library has most of the GD's for the last 20 years or so. You might try that. If they dont have it they can get on an interlibrary loan.

Slim,

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you should "re-print" the article here. Can you give us the gist of it though? How did the author determine tubular magazines ARE safe?

Unfortunately a trip to the nearest public library here in SW Riverside county is not worth my time. I'd rather order a used copy of GD through Amazon.

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Forty Four, Sorry, i didnt mean to come on strong!

Do you mean Riverside Calif? I used to go out there on biddness quite a bit. TOOOOOO big for me!

Yes, i will post the gist of it but you need to see the pictures. They are interesting!

Slim,

It's not the City of Riverside (L.A. repositioned somewhat inland), but Riverside County. Speaking of Riverside, I'm a second generation So.CA'ian and never could figure out why they call it Riverside in the first place since the river channel only has water in it during a flash flood and then it's more mud than water. Actually, I'm just speculating because I've never really been in Riverside when there's water in the channel. Anyway, perhaps you recall a little whistle stop somewhat south of Lake Elsinore (pronounced Lake Smell-some-more) called Murrieta? When I moved here in '95 there were still some cattle ranchers about. Well, the developers got hold of little old Murrieta and now there's 70,000 people living down here... probably 100,000 in nearby Temecula. Unfortunately, the things that drive politicians and developers in this part of Riverside Co. are not conducive to the ultimate suburban experience; i.e., they've screwed it up! Next stop for me is some place waaaaay out yonder where they'll never build an interstate! Less than ten years ago I could drive up into the hills, 20 minutes from my driveway and shoot my .44 Magnum sixguns all day long. Now I've got to sit in traffic on I-15 to get to the last outdoor range within 65 miles of here.

Thankfully, I finally found a company with excellent growth potential that wants to get the heck out of Kallieforneeyah as bad as I do!

Anyway, enough about CA... does the author blow a magazine during his testing? If he blows a magazine, I'll order the book from amazon.

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Forty Four, nope he didnt blow the magazine tube!
Here's sort of an overview.
Ballou's article is interesting in that he could not find any recorded instances of cartridges firing in the magazine tube! He obviously does not participate in the Marlin Talk forum! At least one contributor to Marlin talk has had a cartridge fire after loading a partial magazine in a Henry replica after he dropped the magazine follower under spring pressure. Elmer Keith had information and a picture of an M-71 Winchester which came apart after a .450 Alaskan detonated in the magazine tube.
Ballou started with a primed cartridge in a vise. He held a Lyman 311041 against the primer and struck it with a 2-pound ballpeen hammer. The primer was a CCI 200. He repeated this test with a Hornady 170 grain jacketed flat nose bullet. Both flat nose bullets would not fire the primer after repeated strikes with the hammer. The bullets meplats doubled in size.
He then tried a Remington 180-grain JSP spitzer bullet. It took five strikes from the hammer to cause the primer to fire. By then the lead nose had disappeared and the jacket material was striking the primer.
He then made up a firing mechanism and attached it to the end of a piece of magazine tube. Using three Remington factory 170 grain .30-30 cartridges he fired the first round. This cartridge was opened up at the neck. The two cartridges forward in the magazine meanly pushed their bullets deeper into the case and did not fire.
He repeated the tests with the Lyman cast bullet and the Hornady jacketed bullets. The powder charge was 30.0 grains of IMR 3031 (which is the classic .30-30 handload but is now considered over maximum by many sources). The same result occurred. The fired cartridge opened at the neck and left lots of unburned powder in the tube. The two forward bullets were merely pushed into their cases and the primers did not fire.
He received the same result when he fired the JSP spitzer bullets. I was surprised at this.

This was an interesting test and is well worth reading.


I never liked Ontario airport or the drive to Riverside! I dont know how you lasted so long!

Thanks for the input Slim. I wish I had more time but I'm buried in work. I'm going to try to get to the range next week and shoot some more 311410s and a few 200 grainers from the ol' 30-30. I'm also thinking about dusting off the 444P and buying a Lyman Devastator mould, assuming it'll drop a .432" bullet, that is. However, I suppose that's another subject.

Regards,
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P.S. Regarding your last comment... I'm a tough ol' ***!

Forty Four,

The Lyman 429640 Devestator HP shoots pretty well in the .444 Marlin, but I tried it out on deer this fall just for fun, to see what results would come about. Here's the photo of an ENTRANCE wound using the bullet at about 2410 fps at muzzle, deer was quartering away at about 30 yards. The bullet, as you can see actually began to open up and fragment on the hair as it raked forward, before ever touching hide, or flesh! Totally scrambled the boiler room, but never exited, and you can see the ENTRANCE.... she ain't a pretty sight.

Won't be repeating this maneuver again with the triple-four I assure you! (Not when I happen to know someone that makes a pretty decent bullet for this rifle!)

God Bless,

Marshall,

Thanks for the input. I was planning to use 429640 on coyotes and trespassers though, not deer. What is the as-cast diameter in WW metal and unalloyed Pb?

;-)

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As cast in WW shows up as about .4315" in my mold, and never tried pure Pb, so can't comment on that one. If shooting coyotes and feral dogs, they won't go anywhere to be sure... just don't count on any nice yellow-dog hides to go to the spring fur sale!

Let us know how it works out for you!

God Bless,

I never liked Ontario airport or the drive to Riverside! I dont know how you lasted so long!

Got to say that when I HAD to go to the Riverside area, I liked the Ontario airport over anything else. Easy in and easy out. :) Of course, that has ALL changed with the up(down)grading of the airport. Now it's just another big, time consuming place. :(

Think I'll stick with FP, or at least RN, in the tube magazines. The PT stuff I'll try in the 99 Savage.

Good thread, and I learned a lot! Thanks! :D

C1PNR

I am inclined to side with your thoughts on ammo for tubular magazines; however, we need to define what an FP is exactly. Is 311644 a flat point design? Surely by anyone's definition, 311041 is a flat point bullet... but where do we draw the line? If a 3/16" meplate on a 30 caliber projectile is considered a flat point, how about a 1/8" meplate on a 30 caliber projectile? Those that say 311644 is safe in tubular magazines use the argument that when loaded rounds are lined up on a flat surface, the meplates are touching the base (assuming primers are "countersunk"). I say that's fine; however, I suspect a little movement from recoil can line those meplats up so they're held against the primers. Personally, I can't see what's going on inside the magazine of my 30-30. Perhaps this is all mute since it may very well require the recoil energy generated by a 300 UltraMag in a 7# rifle to set off a primer with 311644... I don't know. Perhaps it's time to start whacking a few primed cases with 311644 and a ballpeen hammer ;-)

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Easy for you to say!

When I was a kid I used to put .22 LR on a concrete block and hit them with a hammer. Made a very satisfying BANG, and occasionally spit stuff on my hand. :(

Gave THAT stuff up by the time I made 8 years old. :D Just thought it would be nice to be around a while longer! ;)

And let's not talk about the stuff I threw into the "burn barrel" just to see what happened! :confused:

WE...

I'm not sure what point you're aiming at here; however, I was planning to set off primed cases held in a bench vise, not a loaded round of ammunition :-\ Before I go through the trouble though, I'd like to figure out a way to measure the force applied to the primer. Perhaps if I can find the time, I'll rig up a gravity driven jig of some sort with a known weight on the falling end which holds a copy of 311644 securely in place.

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