I had waited many years to act on my desire to own and hunt with a 444 Marlin and after purchasing a 444P was disappointed in the overall choice of bullets available. Having an interest in casting my own, I soon found that most molds used for producing bullets for the 444 are also those intended for use with the 44 Remington Magnum handgun.

After testing the bullets formed with the Lee C430-310-RF, a mold intended for use with the 44 Rem. Mag., I thought I would explore Lee Precision’s Custom Mold Service to design a mold for a bullet that specifically has the 444 Marlin in mind. The service, for a tooling and setup fee of $100, assists the customer in designing a mold based on the bullet features desired. After the design is finalized, molds are available for a one-time order at the standard mold suggested retail price of $25. Click here for info about Lee Molds (http://www.leeprecision.com/catalog/browse.cgi?1075936580.2339=bullmol1.html).

I started this project based on my needs. My intent was to order the work, buy a couple of molds for use now and in the future and be happy. After hearing about my project a number of individuals have expressed an interest in acquiring the same molds.

http://www.baitshopboyz.com/forum/uploads/TLC-432-285-RF.jpg

Using Lee’s designation, this bullet will be a TLC432-285-RF. The “TL” represents Lee Micro Bands® for tumble lubing with Lee Liquid Alox®. The “C” signifies that the bullet will have a crimp groove for a gas check. “432” is the nominal diameter of the bullet of .432”. This diameter is based on my experience in slugging the barrel of my 444P and that offered through Beartooth Bullet’s resources (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/faq/extras/marlindia.htm). The “285” is the weight of the bullet cast with wheel weights and without the gas check or lube. The bullet with the gas check and depending on the actual properties of your lead will weigh between 290 and 300 grains. The “RF” represents the round flat nose and an approximate meplate of .34 or 78%. These specs will produce a wound channel of from 1.7" at 50 yards down only to 1.3" at 200 yards!

The Micro Bands® are intended to take advantage of the Liquid Alox but they also reduce or eliminate the need to size the bullet. You still will need a method for installing the gas check. The spec on bullet dimensions the Lee mold delivers are -.000”/+.003”. I’m going to use the Lee Lube & Sizing Kit (http://www.leeprecision.com/catalog/browse.cgi?1075936580.2339=lubesize.html). They do not offer a kit in a .432” diameter but you can special order one for $25 which is not much more than the suggested price of $18 for the cataloged Lube & Sizing kits. You might already have something that will work.

An additional feature of this custom mold is that the cannelure groove will be based on the needs of the 444 Marlin and not the 44 Rem. Mag. The groove will produce an OAL of 2.5”. This is under the MAX OAL of 2.57 for the cartridge but this is a length that will ensure that the wide flat nose will reliably feed from the magazine and into the chamber.

Again, this mold is being developed because of my interest and is not a commercial venture of any kind. The initial work is done and the Lee designer seems to thinks that it will be a great bullet for the 444 Marlin. With the design fee, he can make the drawings and submit them for my review. I made the $100 payment and an initial order for 10 molds over the phone. Additional molds can be ordered up through the time the drawing is finalized.

Based on the interest to date, it seems that a fair price for each double cavity mold will be $30. The suggested retail of the Lee molds is $25 and $5 will be towards the design fee. Shipping will be additional and I will keep it as inexpensive as possible. If the orders equal or exceed 25 molds, Lee waives the design fee. If that happens, the price will be adjusted accordingly.

If you are interested in owning a mold, DO NOT SEND ANY FUNDS. We will wait for the final order and your chance to see the drawing and bullet specs as I receive them from Lee. I do have an PayPal account for purchasing on the WEB and see that my account can accept payments from others with a like account. That will make payment easy for some.

If you are interested in owning a mold, DO SEND ME AN EMAIL NOW AT ranch-dog@juno.com. When I receive the drawings I will forward them to everyone that has expressed an interest through an email response. At that time I will have payment instructions and allow 5 working days to receive the funds so that the order can be completed in a timely manner. I believe it can take up to 6 weeks for the molds to reach me after the order. If you have already communicated your interest to me through email, you are on the list.

Neat, hope it works well!

Forgive me for being dense and without casting experience yet, as I am only now assembling the required casting materials in anticipation of spring. You bring up a question I've wondered...how do you crimp a gas check on a bullet that you pan lube (or tumble lube in this case)? Do you still have to use either a lubrisizer or lee sizer? This seems to defeat the purpose of pan/tumble lubing? Is there a simple plier type tool that can crimp on the gas check? Could one be made easily? Am I missing something?

Also will tumble lubed bullets work well at rifle velocities? Don't have a clue just wondering..

Thanks

Eric

Eric wrote: "how do you crimp a gas check on a bullet that you pan lube (or tumble lube in this case)? Do you still have to use either a lubrisizer or lee sizer? This seems to defeat the purpose of pan/tumble lubing? Is there a simple plier type tool that can crimp on the gas check? Could one be made easily?"

There might be a way to do it or a tool but I haven't seen one. The Lee Lube and Sizer kit is really just a Sizer. The bottle of liquid Alox makes it a lube kit. The sizer crimps the gas check and sizes the bullet. You have to tumble lube the bullets before and after the sizing operation but this is really fast. I do think that sizing for accuracy and cartridge feed is going to be important.

"Also will tumble lubed bullets work well at rifle velocities?"

Yes, it does. Actually with the Micro Bands you get a better lube surface because the bands occur at a .05" interval versus a .125". Basically you get two bands for every groove. It also allows for a shorter bullet for a given target bullet weight. More bullet surface is exposed to the lube as the "grooves" on the Micro Bands are at a 26 degree angle vs. 30 degrees and half the depth. More weight per length is pretty important for the 444 Marlin as we are invading propellant space with a heavy bullet.

I am interested in the mould (Lyman's spelling :rolleyes: ) and the drawings RanchDog.

Did your experimentation show that a ~300 grain bullet is optimal for accuracy in the .444? The heavier ones show pretty hefty ftlb (>3600 ft lb - OUCH!) and the only load in LoadSwap.com for a 310 gr is less than 2000 fps which is a little less than a respectable 2700 ftlbs.

Do you have any recommendation for text books on exterior ballistics? I know that bullet stability is a function of many factors including mass, revolutions per minute and of course, how uniform the mass is in the projectile itself.

I would enjoy reading the mathematics describing bullet stability mainly because once you understood it somewhat, you could load to the most accurate velocities based on your bullet selection and the twist rate of your barrel.

OldWolf

Boy oh boy... don't know where to start in reply as I've used all kinds and types of resources. The best resources... friends at home and on forums such as this. For the last six months, I've probably had a reloading, casting, or ballistic text in my hands every free minute but people have been the best source. I make no bones about it, I'm simply a hunter that wants a better bullet.

May be the bottom line as far as the individual bullet is concerned is... What bullet weight for the given caliber can you propel at maximum velocity for a cast, gas checked bullet that is properly matched in diameter for the barrel dimensions. That's the short answer and may be not the best answer as I try to hack this out.

In a nutshell, the casual home caster using some combination of wheel weight alloy is going to be able to push a gas checked big-game bullet at about 2400 FPS before accuracy goes out the door. If that accuracy gives up at a slower FPS, it is probably because the bullet doesn't match the barrel. So if the bullet/barrel is fitted properly the question becomes, what weight of bullet will give me that maximum velocity for my cartridge. For the 444 Marlin using a case loaded with the appropriate powder, I believe it is 290 to 300-grains.

Less than this weight you will exceed the basic limitation of your alloy or have to start backing off the powder charge. I'd prefer not to do that. In my reloading experience... now about 35 years, I've found with few exceptions that a happy load is a load that is at the case capacity.

In the 444 Marlin, I think bullets heavier than my target weight rob case capacity. If your application needs the striking power the shooting distance will move in at some proportional rate with the increase in bullet weight simply because you are loosing room to put powder in the case. I seriously doubt that I will ever hunt bears but given the opportunity to shoot one of the mean guys I would rather shoot him at 150 yards with at 300-grain bullet of proper construction instead of 75-yards with a 400-grain bullet. This statement relates to the 444 Marlin because of what a 100-grains of lead means in case capacity.

Back to the resources. Lee has undoubtly earned thier set up fee. The fellow I'm working with is a patient man and to date has worked through 4 revisions in refining the mold. With each image or phone conversation I have been carefully schooled in the art of mold making and bullet casting.

As far as printed material... The text put together by Marshall on the Technical Note side of this web site is some of the best I've read and it pertains directly to the 444 Marlin. Overall, the best material published on the subject, Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/book.htm). It is about fire lapping a barrel but the information in it is outstanding. Of the other printed material I've read I would have to give Richard Lee's Modern Reloading, Second Edition (http://www.bosesguns.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=997) a tumbs up. The added material on cast bullets vs. pressure in this addition makes the cost of the book well worth it. Everyone seems to recommend Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook (http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/796528) but I didn't think it that good of a reference. Overall, its a loading manual but the loads don't hit any potentional. For the 444 Marlin in particular it's pretty much... here is our pistol bullets, use pistol powders, at pistol velocities. Not me.

I'm familiar with the load in LoadNotes for the Lee C430-310-RF. This bullet is cast by lots of 444 Marlin shooters but if you don't do something to change the diameter you will have to accept a velocity limitation of about 1850 to 1950 FPS.

I'm not sure if this answers your questions Wolf but I sure hope I gave it an old fashion try! There are a number of other considerations but this is about it for now. You've got snail mail inbound!

Ranch Dog,
Very informative reply. I read the 3 articles in the Technical Guide section of this forum. In fact I have read them 3 times. ;)

Is the 2400 fps limit due to leading at higher velocities?

Have your determined the grain wt to 2400fps bullet match for the 30-30? That is what I am loading at the moment. In LoadSwap it looks like that bullet would be a 150gr (jacketed) although I would think one could propel a 170 gr cast bullet at 2400fps witout too much problem.

Used 444 cases are available on Ebay. So are 45-70 at about the same price. 30-30 cases are dirt cheap (comparatively) on Ebay.

I appreciate the snail mail!

OldWolf

Is the 2400 fps limit due to leading at higher velocities?

Bullet to bore fit being correct, chamber pressure vs. bullet alloy strength is pretty much what determines the velocity you will be able to obtain while maintaining control of your bullet. Leading is simply a symptom of excessive chamber pressure or poor bullet fit.

With a tester, you can determine the Brinell Hardness Number (BNH) of your alloy and relate that to an ultimate compressive strength in PSI. BHN X 1422 = PSI at which bullet's alloy and hence it's accuracy start to fail. Notice I said PSI... a lot of pressure data is related in CUPs and there is no relation... period. I think this is why Hogdon powders are so popular with cast bullet shooters because their data is available with a "1-grain velocity/pressure factor" for really working a given load. See the info in Lee's Modern Reloading, Second Edition. In the Chapter 10 of that book, Matching Bullet Metal to Chamber Pressure, they list several pages of data for the 30-30 Win. as an example of how PSI works. The book also explains how to determine a starting load for a given bullet and how to know when that ultimate strength is reached even if you don't have a BHN tester.

I think BTBs can be driven at great velocities because they have the right alloy recipe without making the bullet to brittle. There are some other factors that must come into play when considering a hunting bullet such but this should get you started.

When I get my 336-A back I'm going to slug and lap it and then go straight to the BTB 160-grain FN CG (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/details.php?id=15) and start there. Once I see what it is capable of, I will start to consume my stores of lead. My rifle will be coming back as the 30/30 Ackley Improved and this bullet should comfortable seat within the neck and be a great performer... I've got my Lee Dies for the caliber but haven't done much else just now as the rifle is on it's way to NE.

Guy's I'm darn sure not writing this as an "expert" as I'm far from that and don't want to ever be considered such. I really have got to think with these replies because I would hate to give bad poop! Please step in and offer corrections or your opinion as it is the only way I can learn. Thanks!

"Leading is simply a symptom of excessive chamber pressure or poor bullet fit"

While what you've posted is true, the word 'simply' gets my attention. Many other variables cause varying degrees of leading-- due to bullet design, it's hardness and the lube quality itself. Then barrel quality-- each barrel isn't always capable of the best performance. Add in handloading variables and the list of leading causes now has grown dramaticly.

I didn't note in this thread per running this bullet thru a stability program for a looksee. Yet a conventional wt for the caliber should work.

Bearing surface strength. You want speed-- added bearing surface strength will help in the accuracy dept. There's definitely such a thing as too much lube, but not readily noticeable in factory hunting guns. Usually the chrono is splattered with lube-- or firing the bullet design point blank thru cardboard reveals the splattering of excess lube. The area this lube is best used for bearing surface.

How much lube is enough? Tests are best run with a similar design reducing the amount of lube in gradual stages to see just how much is needed. Most often this is far less than a design carries.

"Leading is simply a symptom of excessive chamber pressure or poor bullet fit"

Add in "inadequate lubrication and excessive bore roughness" and I'll go with it.

Bullet alloy strentgh can be looked at as an "excessive chamber pressure" problem...the soft bullets would work at a diffent pressure level, so you can take the view that it's not the bullet's problem, but the pressure used.

Lubrication plays a prt, but most good commercial lubes are good at their job, as are mnay of the home mixed lubes...but not all of them. In general, longer barrels need more lube than shorter ones. Some loads that have worked great and didn't lead in a 10" Contender didn't work so well in a 24" rifle barrel.

On a new rifle, you'd not expect to have an excessively rough barrel. On an old one, it's more common than not. Can still shoot well for a number of shots, but abrasion is a leading factor that nearly nothing we can do can fully cure.

OK guys...perhaps you've had more luck with the really bad cases on antique arms that I have. There is one old 38/40 Colt Bisley 5 1/2"...dated to 1907) in there with a really nice bore...except for one small area of pits (like a drop of something corrosive had been left in conctact). Pits are just about at the center of the bore. Best guess is that the worst pit is about .004". Been lapped to get the sharp edge off, but still collects lead...not a great problem, accuracy stays fine until about the same time the BP fouling needs to be cleaned out, so I just treat it to a real clean rather than BP swabbing.

Rebarreling is out...reboring is out...cuting it would leave all of about 2 1/2"-3" of barrel....and I believe lapping .008" from the bore is pretty well out as well.

Actually doesn't bother me that much...it's not like I'm going to be holding off the Mongol Hord, just an occasional afternoon at the range. So giving it a cleaning every 12-18 rounds is acceptable.