For shooting competetion,will the shiloh and c.sharps shoot any better group than a pedersoli sharps?

On average, the Shilohs and C.Sharps rifles shoot much better than any of the Italian guns. The C.Sharps rifles can also be specified with higher quality, competition-grade barrels at a very modest increase in price. I believe their standard barrels are Douglas and their higher grades are Obermeyer and/or Badger. Shiloh makes their barrels in-house. and they are very good barrels; much better than the Italian guns.

I own 9 Shiloh/C.Sharps rifles; 8 Model 1874s and 1 Model 1875. By far, the Model 1875 is the best shooter, as it has a wonderful single trigger set to release at 2.5lbs and a lock time that leaves the Model 1874s in the dust!

If you really must have a Sharps, a semi-custom C.Sharps Model 1875 set up for BPCRS should be very competitive, as they were originally intended to compete in the long-range Creedmoor matches. However, if I had the money and was really serious about BPCRS, I would go straight to Steve Garbe at the Ballard Rifle Company in Cody, Wyoming.
www.ballardrifles.com
www.blackpowderspg.com

I don't believe that, on average, either of the Sharps' rifles will shoot better than a Pedersoli.

The Shiloh and C. Sharps definitely LOOK better - much better finish and fitting, and a lot more pride of ownership - but I have never seen or heard that they SHOOT any better.

I don't believe that, on average, either of the Sharps' rifles will shoot better than a Pedersoli.

The Shiloh and C. Sharps definitely LOOK better - much better finish and fitting, and a lot more pride of ownership - but I have never seen or heard that they SHOOT any better.

I tried to answer Big Country's question as it pertained to competition. My experience with the Sharps rifles comes after 20+ years of shooting them.

Three things need to happen before I give the Pedersoli Sharps a good rating, as far as serious competition is concerned.

1. A stock Pedersoli Sharps with an original, stock, factory barrel must place in the top 10 at the World Championship BPCR Silhouette Match at Raton, NM. This is something C.Sharps, Shiloh and Ballard rifles do on a regular basis. I am not holding my breath on this one.

2. European International Long Range shooters must start using a lot more home-grown Pedersolis, instead of importing the very expensive, better shooting Montana-made Sharps rifles. I am also not holding my breath here, either.

3. In general (and Beretta is not included), the Italians need to start making Old West cowboy guns out of something a little harder than cheese and pasta. :D Perhaps they could get a few pointers from the Japanese, who build very fine firearms for Winchester and Browning.

Garth, I, too, was answering the question as it realtes to competition.

I understand your criteria (about top 10 finishes and accuracy) - but don't completely agree with it. The problem with it is that not that many competitors shoot Pedersolis. At our monthly BP gong matches, attended by 15-25 shooters, I don't recall seeing a Pedersoli on the line in quite some time. It's hard to have a rifle place high if no one is shooting it.

You can argue that people don't shoot it because it's not accurate enough - but to some extent that's a chicken-and-the-egg argument. For that matter, Ballards are fairly rare at most shoots, and the situation is somewhat similar - last year at Raton there were no Ballards in the top 10. At Quigley last year, there were only 15 Ballards out of nearly 500 competitors. I would NOT say that a Sharps is more acurate than a Ballard simply because there are more Sharps in the top 10 or 20.

As you probably know, at Raton last year, there was a side-match competition called "Five at 200" - five shots from the bench at 200 yds., in 4 categories: over and under 40 cal, scope, and irons.

A Pedersoli (RB) shot the smallest group of the entire match - 1.76" in over 40 cal iron sights. Another Pedersoli was third. A Browning won both competitions in 40 and under, iron and scope. The Shiloh took two seconds and a fourth, with a Stevens and a Meacham also in there.

But what does it all mean? Probably not enough data to really say much about it - but I sure wouldn't feel handicapped with the Pedersoli, as far as accuracy is concerned.

With regards to the Italian manufacturers, Mike Venturino, in his book "Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West" writes on p. 17:

"The Italians are noted for making smooth barrels, and so I began trying blackpowder loads in the Uberti Model 1873 replicas......I found that these Italian made replicas of lever action Winchesters are very fine quality firearms. It is no secret that the italian made replicas of SA revolvers range from downright dismal to fairly good....(but) the work they do on the lever gun replicas is outstanding".

One last thing - with regard to quality, your rarely read about it, but, more often than you think, the top U.S. manufacturers sometimes have some real QA problems. I talked to one shooter who had to send his U.S.-manufactured Sharps back to the manufacturer because a 45/70 cartridge would not chamber!!! The chamber was cut too short. How did that rifle ever get out of the door? At our match yesterday, a shooter mentioned that he was having problems with his loads because his brand new 45/70 (of a famous U.S. manufacturer) had a bore diameter of only .456" (I have heard this complaint more than once). I have been at BP silhouette shoots where shooters have had to drop out because of some malfunction of their U.S. made rifle.

Sure - the factory fixed it at no charge. But you still had to miss at least one match, box it up, mail it, etc, etc. And when you pay upwards of $1600-$2000 (base price), I think you have every right to expect that rifle will NOT malfunction, the chamber will be long enough (!), and the bore of a 45/70 will measure .458", plus or minus a few ten-thousandths.

I think we have to look at what a manufactor,s standers are for a cal. Most that write about the old 45/70 was 457 lead bullet. Springfiels barrels grouve 458-460. Danish rb 455/456. padersoli 455/456. Wnn mag 458/459. Numrich arms rb barrels 455/456. Old 38 barrels 379/380, bullets avertised at 377 dia. New barrels at 375/376 grouve. I think it more in the tooling at the time the barrel was made at the time period the standerds were set. If you were starting out new and was going to produce repro guns you might make your tooling the same as the old sizes. But if you already have tooling to make 45 cal barrels in 458 grouve why spend the money for new tools to make 456 barrels to shoot lead bullets in 457/458 dia. well . Most jacked bullits are 457/458. Look at the 40 cal,s win 403, 406, 408 dia. Some barrel.s were made useing 41 mag buttons to make 410 grov barrels for 40 cal rifles. Then sammi comes in and makes a standerd for the industrey, paid for by the manufactor. So who,s standerd do you use. Marlin standerd for the 444marlin twist was the old 1/38 twist but it would not stablise a bullit much over 260 gr. Now they have a 1/20 twiet advertised so you can use them 300 gr. and make that 444m a real gun to compet with the 45/70.