Difficult to find information.
This is my first post so forgive me If this is not the place to ask...

Original ( was my Great Uncle's from late 1800's) Sharps Carbine. Serial # C.21XXX is a CENTERFIRE... ( factory conversion, I believe... ) Chamber is almost exactly 2 inches long... and the .50 Carbine empty case (only 1.3 inches long) I have( from the Spencer that he owned) slides in nicely.
The bore Mics at roughly .52...or as best I could determine.

What the heck IS the cartrdge this used??
Is this one of the 50-70 conversions??
Does anyone here know where I can find out?

Thanks in advance!

There was a 50 carbine, a shortened version of the 50-70...not too sure of the exact length, the only round seen in a collection is pretty beat up but the case looked to be about 1 1/3" long rahter than the 50-70's 1 3/4". Reguardless of how may were made in the shorter length case, many of them got re-converted to the full sized 50/70 at some later date (usually after they were sold off as surplus) simply becasue of ammo supply.

So yes, the majority of Spencers were converted to 50/70.

There were also two rim-fire Spencer rounds of about the same dimentions, the 56-50 and the 56-52...both are shorter than the 50 carbine, and are rimf fires so that wouldn't be a match. (BTW: reguardless of the numbering system, both Spencer rounds are usually loaded with .515-518" bullets..which isn't far from the 50/70 and 50Carbine's .512" bullet).

Ther is a long section in "The Rifle in America" (Sharpe) that I've been wandering thorugh that lists a lot of the conversions. Sharps did convert some of the percussion guns to the 56-50 Spencer (1867) and in 1869 converted many to the 50/70. Also seems that some of the Spencer chambered guns got converted along with the persussions to the standard military caliber of that day (50/70). IS quite possible some of those were actually chambered for the shorter "Carbine" case.

Do know that the conversion from percusion to metalic required relining the barrels to .50 (the reline was cheaper than rebarreling, so it was used in the first trapdoor conversions to 50/70 and later 45/70 as well...in the Sharps case, they were paid $4.40 per conversion). May be evidence of this from a hard look at the barrel crown. the rpocess seemed to be to ream the barrel, insert a blank, and then rifle the blank...at least in Trapdoors, there is usally a bronze braze line visible at the corwn...don't know if Sharps converted theirs the same way or not.

That's my best guess...but it would help if you noted somemore of the various markings on the rifle.

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Also have to mention, that while some rounds look like rimfires, they are actually inside primed centerfires. the example rounds you have could be Spencer RF rounds or they cold be 50 Carbine inside primed rounds...sometimes there is a "hint" in the form of two dents in teh case sides about 1/4" above the rim...the dents held in one of the inside prime systems. unfortunatly, are other inside prime systems that didn't give visual clues.

Inside prime seems like a silly idea today...but from what I've read, the military fo the time was obsessed with water sealing.

THANK YOU for the quick response!

http://www.hunt101.com/img/103991.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/103993.jpg

Okay.... so to let you know... this is one of a few cases I have ... I was told by my brother that these 50 Carbine cases were for the Sharps...but the chamber dimensions have me doubting that and wondering if they were, instead, for the Spencer that we inherited, but now that you mention the 56-50, I think that might have been what the Spencer used... but I am STILL not so sure that they are correct for the Sharps. In any event, the Spencer was sold a few years back and the subject matter here is the Sharps.

The Sharps barrel is not lined. Leading me to believe it was only chamber reamed and the caplock mechanics converted to centerfire....Also, I cannot believe they'd make that much freebore ( about .45 inches) so I have my doubts it's a 50 carbine... the only reason I brought up the carbine case, is that the rim dimensions and the case-wall taper and diameter seem to fit the chamber well.... even though it "isn't long enough"... I cannot seem to find case dimensions for ANY of these cartidges... :( .. so I am also looking to find a drawing or dims for the 50-70, if anyone has such a thing.

It's all a mystery to me and One I hope I can solve...I'd like to shoot this rifle someday...so I am on a quest to find cases, bullets, loading data and so forth.
I can think of no better way to Honor my Family history by bringing this rifle alive once again, and perhaps even taking a Whitetail with it, someday.
I'm not new to reloading but cased blackpowder cartridges are new to me. Things I am learnig about are inert fillers and paper patching and such...none of which I've concerned myself with reloading anything else to date. So this will be a new frontier for me!
Your comment that Sharps DID, in fact, do 50-70 conversions on these rifles (Well, this one's a carbine) seems like a huge step toward solving this case!

BTW, What are the other markings you'd be interested in knowing about??

You have a centerfire Spencer that takes those rounds? Going to have to research that a bit, wasn't aware of that Spencer conversion from RF to 50carbine. Could you tell me if the breech of that Spencer has any stray cuts or fill to show it once was a RF?

That apears to be the .50 carbine round...a slightly short 50/70 round used in some light weight carbines becasue the recoil of the 50/70 was objectionalble to some. At the time frame, the govement issued rounds as 50 Govement (the 50/70) and 50 Carbine 9the short one you have). Seems odd, but there were Trapdoors (and I'd guess Sharps) carbines chambered for this round exclusively...it could be used in a full sized 50/70 (it's the 38specail/.357mag. arrangement..the long chamber can take the short, but the short chamber can't take the long).

The Sharps may not have a lined barrel...they only did that to the percusions they converted (lined the barrel, added a new centerfire breech block, kept the rest). Just like the trapdoor, prooved popular enough that new rifles were built from teh ground up as centerfire carbines.

CVurrent Lyman #48 does list the 50/70 in it's loadings...but today's brass may not be a great match for older brass. TOday's 50/70 runs a rim diameter of .666", rim thickness of .070", head diameter of .5665" and a neck diameter (without crimp) of .5406". The .50 carbine should come close to that, with perhaps a slightly larger neck diameter.

Oh yes...the Sharps 50/70crbine had a lot of use in the old west of the late 1860's and early 1870's. The 45/70 didn't get issued to the troops in the far off out of the way places until the 1880's..and all along the way, many of them were sold off (or given along with free ammo) to civialians. Some 50/70 cases were found at Little Big Horn, and from their placemnt, it could have been either side that left them (or both).

May as well mention it...shortened 50/70 cases would work if you've really an urge to fire that rifle. BP only and with a good going over for wear ( warning: the old firing pins get brittle, and it does have a dog leg turn built into it..even if it looks great, it can break at the next outing). Personally, I'd just trim one case until I found the actual end of that chamber (as opposed to any book figure...they weren't all that exacting back then) and then trim the rest to match.

Can weight check that pulled bullet...belive the listed specs. are for a 400gr. bullet, but 425's are normal for the full sized 50/70 and that's reasonably close. Th4e bullet in the picture LOOKS short...like it would weight out at about 300-330gr. The original charge was only 45gr. of powder (ffg but probably fg could be used to drop pressure a little bit). A real slugging of the barrel would be niuce to get the diameter...but you've got the bullet out of the cse and in good enough shape to get an idea what the ammo once held (don't be surprised to find the barrel a bit larger than the bullet's diameter).

The round in the picture are of latter make..probably about 1900 to the 1920's...the headstamp and style of stamp seem about right for that era.

You have a centerfire Spencer that takes those rounds? Going to have to research that a bit, wasn't aware of that Spencer conversion from RF to 50carbine. Could you tell me if the breech of that Spencer has any stray cuts or fill to show it once was a RF?

Um....Sorry to mis-direct you !!!
No... I Thought the Spencer took these... but when you mentioned the 56-50.... that made my tired old brain think differently.
As I said, My brother (my Twin, BTW) said these .50 Carbines were for the Sharps, and NOT the Spencer....So me being the EVIL twin ;) I figured he was mistaken...geesh.. I'm not doin' well here....Anyway, He ended up selling the Spencer a few years back, to a collector that had drooled over it many times...All I remember about it was the fact that it was a repeater and loaded through the buttstock, and >>When I was young<< thinking it looked sorta-similar to the Sharps....But now I know differently....
All this is making me more and more excited... to know that I could use the Carbine cartridge int his chamber even though it is possibly for the 50-70... You are being a lot of help, thank you!.... now to go get a Lyman reloading manual...:D
Do you know where to get the brass for these 50-70 or 50 Carbines??

B.E.L.L. brass is the most common...and good quality brass. Several places handle it, Huntington's...Old Wester Scrounger...Dixie Gun Works...Cabelas (at lest they did). Dies are made by several makers...mine are Lyman (shoot a Rolling Block in 50/70...an old New York Contract rifle...while your's is a short one, this one's barrel runs 36").

Bullest are available commercailly in 425 and 450gr. weights...are some heavier ones, but not for use in this short case/slow twsit barrel.

{Shame on me...don't klnow if Marshal at this site has .512" bullets of this weight range or not...apologize ahead of time.}

Would pass on the Lyman manual for this use...don't believe in smokless and old guns. While there are LOTS of techniques to learn loading BP, one thing stays constant: no air space and a light bit of powder compression. Can reduce the load with fiber wads in a full sized case, but that's really teh whole reason for your short case..they didn't have the opetion of just using less powder (uncompressed) in a full sized case.

Thinking about it...CLEAN THE CHAMBER OF THAT RIFLE!!! Is possible that lots of use with the short round has left a lot of fouling...and that "freebore" may just be a well fouled forward section of a standard 50/70 chamber...that would expalin the odd free bore, it's just a fouled chamber that won;t let the case slip in.
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Hit the news stand...the Feb. 20th issue of Shotgun News has a short piece by Mike CVenturino on the 50-70.

I looked up the price of 20 brass... and the bullets and the dies... this is gonna be like shooting my .264! well...that is if I bought Factory ammo.
Had no idea.
but you only go around once, and I am going to see about making the most of it!
So... thank you for the leads in the right direction!
I have scrubbed the chamber, BTW, and it is what it is... almost exactly 2inches long.... that amounts to a 'tad' bit of free bore ( the way I figure it, anyway) with the 50-70.
so be it.
Loadign to begin in April or May and shooting to beginshortly after!
I will report later this summer when I shoot this ol' gal...

Thanks again!

Just to be sure we are on the same page. The round in the picture is not a 50/70. A 50/70 is a full 1.75" long. The pictured round is a 50 carbine, whicih is a shortened version of the 50/70...it should be something like 1.3-1.4" long.

If you've got a 2" chamber, it will take 50/70. Not unsual for chambers in old guns to be cut a bit long.

So what you have is a good example of one of the first centerfire Governemt issue metalic cartidge rifle (carbine). PRetty popular gun in it's time, and can bet nearly every big battle of the Indian Wars had a few of them one one side or the other (or both).
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Also not unusual for old guns to be "chambered out" to accept longer cases. The 50/110 is too long at 2.4". The only one that coms close to matching length (the 50/95) misses in some oghte dimentions (a small rim for one)...so I'd still guess that the chamber is just a slightly long 50/70.

Just to be sure we are on the same page. The round in the picture is not a 50/70. A 50/70 is a full 1.75" long. The pictured round is a 50 carbine, whicih is a shortened version of the 50/70...it should be something like 1.3-1.4" long.

If you've got a 2" chamber, it will take 50/70. Not unsual for chambers in old guns to be cut a bit long.

So what you have is a good example of one of the first centerfire Governemt issue metalic cartidge rifle (carbine). PRetty popular gun in it's time, and can bet nearly every big battle of the Indian Wars had a few of them one one side or the other (or both).
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Also not unusual for old guns to be "chambered out" to accept longer cases. The 50/110 is too long at 2.4". The only one that coms close to matching length (the 50/95) misses in some oghte dimentions (a small rim for one)...so I'd still guess that the chamber is just a slightly long 50/70.

Yes, I understand the 50 Carbine as being the 38 to 357 analogy... ( good one, btw) ... and I have to tell you... I will not be using these cases, either...since 1) the primer looks to be an odd-ball size and 2) they are just part of the equation I 'd rather not mess with...they are 'old' and I'd like to keep them in their "antique" state. and 3) I would rather buy the "correct" cases ie., the 50-70's and cut them short if I ever desire to go that route
The "free-bore" I was talking about was the fact that the chamber is slightly longer than the 50-70 case.... so yes, we're thinking alike here.
I realize that true free-bore is not just a longer chamber, but for lack of a better way to put it, that's the term I used.
As this carbine was in extermely good shape before the house fire in the 1980's I would say that it PROBABLY never saw a shot fired in a battle, but it's hard to say...since everyone that could help prove the provenance is dead.
I think there are some glass plates still around showing my great uncle holding this rifle but I cannot locate them...THAT would be NEAR proof but probably not good enough for a serious collector....there is certainly nothing in writing about it.
My Twin's only comment was that I should tie it to a tire and pull the trigger with a string on the first time I shoot it.... he isn't as confident in the metal as I am. :eek:
I am very confident there was no harm done to the metal... but I'll certainly use safety glasses :cool: That firing pin mechanism doesn't seem the best in terms of safety, but is was pretty clever how they did the conversion.
I'll take some pics if you'd like to see more of it.

The navy had a 50 carbine rolling block rifle. I shoot one . The sharps was 58 spencer rf then it was rechamberd to 50/70 if the grouve dia was not over a certian size. It was found that accuracy was not up to mill spect. Some were then relined some were rebarreled some were sold from the goverment as surplus. From what i have read sharps was dealing with the gov to redo the sharps to a cart gun. Sharps gave them a price for somany thousand guns. At the same time springfield was asked to see if they could convert rifles to cart guns. So you can see were there can be a strang number of rifles. Sharps had tooled up to make conversions and but at the same time springfield developed a cheaper conversion (trapdoor). Sharps had some private dealers rifles converted. useing surplus goverment rifles. If i remember correctally were for some euorpian arms dealers. Ya know that car dealer talk i have 50,000 sharps rifles i want converted to 50/70 how much. O 4$ a piece. I send you 5000 and the rest when thouse are done. Well the rest never came and the gov. backed out on there agerement and sharps slowley went out of broke. So the short of it your sharps brobley is a 50/70 rechamber job with a 52-54 grouve. The ammo might have been real cheap surplus that gramps picked up. There were more 50/70 rifles than carbines made by all manufactors. So if you have 50 carbine ammo by the case full and everbody is buying 50/70 you might let it go cheeper to get rid of it. So he may have bought it and found it still brought home the meat. Why spend 5$ abox of 20 when you can get 50foe2$

PS bufflo arms has brass and bullits. Good place to go to on the web.

Thought this thread was dormant...or I'd have noted the reference I cam across. Whne Sharps converted their 52 Percussions to 50/70, if the bore of the 52 was judged good enough and the diameter close enough, they didn't reline them but used them as they were. Even though the 50-70 is SUPOSE to be .512", some of the 52percussion barrels were as small as .515"...the .003" wasn't considered a big deal.

Given black powder, the soft bullets used, and the accuracy standards of the day, it probably wasn't a big deal.