Ok, where I live here in VA, the longest shot I'll ever have to make is probably going to be 150yards, tops.

So at 150 yards, which will be the better deer gun ? Notice I have a tendacy to like overkill. Heck, I'd hunt white tail with a BMG if I could afford the gun :D

I've been a fan of the 300 win mag for a few years (note Im only 22 now)m but I am open to more suggestions. Except, I do not want a .270 or .30-06 , I like to be kinda different, and around here those are the only two rifles you hear about from deer hunters. Let me say again, I would like to also take this gun bore hunting.

.338 Win Mag too much gun ? :D

Ok, where I live here in VA, the longest shot I'll ever have to make is probably going to be 150yards, tops.

So at 150 yards, which will be the better deer gun ? Notice I have a tendacy to like overkill. Heck, I'd hunt white tail with a BMG if I could afford the gun :D

I've been a fan of the 300 win mag for a few years (note Im only 22 now)m but I am open to more suggestions. Except, I do not want a .270 or .30-06 , I like to be kinda different, and around here those are the only two rifles you hear about from deer hunters. Let me say again, I would like to also take this gun bore hunting.

.338 Win Mag too much gun ? :D

The .270 is the #1 deer pick each year for whitetail deer, followed by the 30-06 which you don't want either. The 300 Win mag is certainly over kill for only shooting 150 yards. It is a magnum and that means it gives you another 125 yards in down field range simply put.

A 300 or 338 mag is NOT going to kill a whitetale deer any deader than the .270, 30-06, 7 X 57 Mauser etc at the yardage you stated "150yards". Now being 22 years old, I think of my son's first magnum and that was indeed NOT a 300 win mag. He did however do a aweful lot of shooting, moving up the ladder as years went by. He started at 10 years of age with a 22LR, then the 222 and .243, 270, 7mm mag and then the 300 Win mag. It was a 12 year up grading.
If you really want a magnum, I suggest the 7mm mag, it is more controllable and doesn't KICK as hard, giving you better accuracy. It will also ruin a lot of meat on a whitetail deer up close with soft bullets.

If I had to make the decision for you concerning a caliber that will suit you to a TEE and let you shoot it all day long without a brusing effect on your body, it would be the 7 x 57 Mauser or the 7mm-08. My personal whitetail deer rifle is a feather weight model 70 25-06, shooting a 120 grain bullet at around 2900 fps.

Tang,

In your post title you mentioned the 444. My bud and I went out shooting yesterday. Him with his 45-70 and me with my 444S. We shot 25 yd, 50 yd, 105 yd and 154 yd all lazered.

My bud's 45-70 shot way under 1 1/2" groups at 154 yd as well as my 444S. We are both zeroed at 150 yd.

I shoot the Hornady Light Magnum 265 gr. factory ammo. + 1/2"@ 25 yd, + 3/4"@ 50 yd, +2"@ 100 yd and 0@ 150.

They will shoot.



Dave :)

Tang,
I would choose the 300win over the 444, thats my preference. To 150 yds you could take either, depends on what your comfortable shooting. The 338win is a great round, I use one and like it a lot, sure it belts a bit , but i can shoot it well. No, it would not be over kill on deer. Remember that just because it has Magnum in the title, will not mean you can shoot Deer in the guts and they'll drop over, proper bullet placement is the key. A 7mm rem mag would be a good choice for you, but if you want something bigger, then try to fire one before you buy it? 300 mags ect will ruin a lot of good meat at that range.

cheers closs ;)

You can't kill something too dead. Having said that, and having used my .300WM on whitetails in SC, and FL, I can tell you from personal experience that at close range using Nosler Partitions at 3000 f/s, you do destroy alot of meat, but when hit in the heart lung area the deer doesn't go far, usually about 3-5 yards. If you're going to hunt somewhere besides VA, such as out west, or even over longer ranges at some point in the future, then I would choose the.300WM. The .444 is a good cartridge, and packs a wallop at close range, but the twist on the rifling from Marlin limits the bullet choices to somewhere around 265 gr and under; i.e., it sometimes won't stabilize 300 gr and over bullets, especially at extended ranges. The .444 in the Marlin carbine would be handier than a .300 WM in a bolt gun, simply from a barrel length point of view, as most .300's come with 24" barrels. If feral hogs or Russian boar are on the agenda, and if I were on the ground hunting them, then I personally would opt for the Marlin levergun in either .444 or .45-70, because in my experience, the leverguns handle better in close conditions, especially when using low power scopes or iron sights. I use the .45-70, as that cartridge gives greater options as to bullet weights and styles. If you want a bolt gun that handles like a levergun, but is in a better cartridge for long range hunting, then you can't beat a Ruger 77 Light Weight in .257 Roberts, .260 Rem, or the like, or a Remington Model 7 in 7mm-08, or .308. Any of these cartridges are very good at extended ranges, but will not destroy alot of meat at closer ranges, and in the rifles above, are very handy in the woods.

My opinion is the 300 has more versitility in the range dept. because of much higher velicities. Bullet selection is better then the 444 too. If your a handloader that probably isnt much of a concern though. The 300 has tremendous shock power at that range so meat loss would be my main concern with that cartridge. I would pick the lever gun for 150 yard shots. To me the 444 or 45-70 is just more fun to shoot.

thanks for the input guys ! I got more replies than I expected :)

Something I looked at last night, was the 7mm Ultra Mag, its ballistics are right up there with .300WM .

The only thing that bothers me about the Rem Ultra Mags, is the price of ammo. Its like buying Weatherby ammo.

Tang,

How about an 8x57 Mauser?!
Its over kill for deer,
Remington has their 2004 classic M700 chambered for it and
plinking ammo is available & cheap.

Its certainly different. And if you reload there is a great variety/sellection from 150 to 250 grains bullets to load.

I just looked up some ballistics on the 8x57, it seems a little weak to me. I must not have a good grasp on the Muzzle Energy of these guns.
8x57 JS (170 RN) 2360fps\2100ft-lbs at the muzzle.

But I suppose cheap ammo and super power are two different things all together.
.308 seems to have relative cheap ammo. Winchester Ballistic Silvertips are $19.99 for 150 or 168gr .
.308 Win. (150 Sp) 2820fps\2648ft-lbs

So down to my last question, what kind of recoil does a .308 have ? Compared to say a 12 gauge with 3" mag Turkey Loads. Im more familar with shotguns than rifles.

Would a .308 be something I could shoot a lot without it killing me ?


Guys, I really appreciate you putting up with all my questions and lending me advice.

Tang,
Now thats a cannon, 7mm ultra, 300 win is more economical than this one, ammo should be easy to get as with the 7mm mag? The choice is yours, I remember being your age and buying these big calibers to hunt with, missed a lot wasn't able to grasp the blast or recoil, sure I hit game but I feel i could of shot better with a 270/ 30/06 308 ect, but it was fun to fire them any way. I have fired a lot of rounds since and recoil is not a problem any more, so I use the 338 win.
What ever you choose are you going to hand load? or use factory rounds? This may influence your choice. You have been offered a variety of idea's here hope they help, I think you should choose the caliber you can shoot the best and are confident in using :cool:

closs ;)

Tang, 308 win sensible choice, cheap to get ammo for and to reload, easy on the shoulder, about 20ft lbs of recoil. You would be able to bag all your game with the 150 gr load, it is excellent down her Australia, for the general run of game, ie goats,pigs, deer, so i see no reason why it would not be effective on your deer. The choice of ammo for hunting is endless in 308win, go to your local store and check it out. The M77 are a good rifle in 308 topped with a 2-7 of some sort, it would be great for you to hunt with, just an idea. :cool:

cheers closs ;)

ps i'd rather shoot the 308 than 12g 3" shells any day :p

Whata ya think of this rifle ? Are they any good ? Like I said, Im more familar with shotguns.

Remington 700 (http://www.davidsonsinc.com/consumers/subsites/inven_product.asp?dealer_id=532910&item=7516&instock=all&manufact_combo=Remington&mod_ser_combo=700&category_combo=None&model=700&g_type=None&act_type=&finish_type=None&calib_combo=308&sight_class_combo=None&price_range=None&left_handed=&youth=&Offset_rec=0&num_rec=50&item_num=)

http://www.davidsonsinc.com/dealers/prod_images/7478.jpg

I just looked up some ballistics on the 8x57, it seems a little weak to me. I must not have a good grasp on the Muzzle Energy of these guns.

8x57 JS (170 RN) 2360fps\2100ft-lbs at the muzzle.

But I suppose cheap ammo and super power are two different things all together. .308 seems to have relative cheap ammo. Winchester Ballistic Silvertips are $19.99 for 150 or 168gr.

.308 Win. (150 Sp) 2820fps\2648ft-lbs

......Tang,

Problem is 8x57 ammo you found is load down to 36,000 CUPs!

The 8x57 will out perform the .308 when loaded up to full potiential (58,000 CUPs), i.e. Hornady 150 SP at 2955fps\2907ft-lbs

BUT where it really shines is with the 200gr. bullets and heavier that the .308 can't stabilize. Sierra 220 GameKing at 2442fps\2570ft-lbs.

As far as cheap ammo - I'm talking good quailty mil-surplus 196 gr at 2450fps for less that 10 cents per shot. Its probably the best ammo buy on the web right now. Better than 7.62 Nato, etc. You can find 8x57 for around 5 cents per shell, but quality isn't as good as you get miss-fires and velocity varies a lot.

I've got some good 1948 mil-surp that we were hitting a head and shoulders silhouette today at 500 yards! - YES 500 YARDS!


PS: Yes, I like Remington rifles as long as you are not hunting dangerous game.

Well, my uncle said he would sell me his Ruger .300WM (the one I mentioned shooting) .

Its an M77 Mark-II Stainless , with a stainless Leupold 3-9x40 scope.

Gun is in Great shape. Whats it worth ?

Tang, I like the remington ADL they are functional and get the job done, in 308 or 300 win would be ok. The ruger rifle you have mentioned, 300win + leupold scope sounds good, would be worth about $990 in Australia or more, you didn't say whether it was the scollaped out stock version or not. The only thing about the stainless rugers that I don't like is the bright reflective finnish, a bit like a fishing lure in the scrub.

cheers closs ;) ;)

excuse me for sounding dumb here, but what does scollaped mean ?

It's one with the stock that resembles an I-Beam and has Ruger wrote inside it. No iron sights on the gun.

It's worth whatever you're willing to pay for it, and at what price your uncle is willing to sell it. Seriously though, if it's a good condition M77 II stnls, I'd offer $350-400 for the rifle, and depending upon which level Leupold it is, Vari X II, VX, would determine scope price. Total package price, I would offer $550, and work from there. A brand new M77 II can be had in blue for between $449-489, and probably an extra $50-75 for stainless, and a Leupold scope in 3x9 can be had from $150-300 depending upon grade.
The 7mm RUM is an overbore cartridge that will give good service if you can stand the cost, both in ammo and in recoil. I would not recommend it. Actually, even though it sounds boring, the .30-06 or .308 would be a better choice for what you seek. Ammo is readily available in numerous bullet weights and configurations, and both cartridges have ample surplus ammo available for plinking if you don't want to handload.

Well, my uncle said he would sell me his Ruger .300WM (the one I mentioned shooting) .

Its an M77 Mark-II Stainless , with a stainless Leupold 3-9x40 scope.

Gun is in Great shape. Whats it worth ?

TANG......first off the 300 win mag is nothing but an extention of the other .308 calibers.....It's main stay is LONG RANGE!
Load it up with 200 or 220 grain weight bullets and you can go after the biggest of the brown bears or African game as well. I carried a 300 for over 20 years and I killed whitetail deer and mulie deer. Up close it will ruin a lot of meat! Mostly because it has to much velocity stored up inside that case.
A .308 Caliber would suit you a much better and recoil would be light also.

I have several lever guns and the Triple Deuce (444Marlin) is one of them. However it is 150 yard gun MAX in my opinion, some might say 200 yards but I'll stand by my words. It is lighter to carry in the woods as opposed to most bolt guns with a scope on them. It packs a big whallop, thus hits hard on big game animals like deer or black bear with the proper bullet. It makes a very large wound channel as well. It's recoil is not a piece of cake to a person who doesn't care for a lot of recoil. It is however much cheaper to shoot than an Ultra mag caliber. A real Jim Dandy hog gun as well in those thickets or deep heavy woods.

Buying your Uncles rifle may have some sentimental value, you just can't really put a price on, then again it may NOT be the rifle or caliber that best suits your needs for the hunting you plan on doing. I kill deer on the farm with a 25-06 caliber in a model 70 Winchester. It is good all the way out to 350 yards, that I am certain of ballistics wise and prehaps even farther.

If your looking for a Magnum caliber rifle, I will suggest to you the 7mm mag....it is a lot softer in the recoil department. However you sure don't need that kind of muzzle energy to kill deer! The Ultra mags are very expensive to buy ammo for period, plus your looking at another 8 more pounds of recoil at least on your shoulder. One must practice in order to become proficient with his weapon of choice, else poor marksmanship results.

Another thing is that you don't need MAGNUM ENERGIES to kill whitetail deer! Any caliber that delivers 800 pounds of energy at 200 yards is sufficient to down a thin skinned whitetail deer.
The 30-30 lever action Winchester is just such a caliber in the energy department and more whitetail deer have been killed with it than any other caliber on the market today.

I see everyones point.

He's going to let me hunt with the 300 until I buy it or buy a rifle of my own, but ofcourse by the time season comes back around I will have one of my own.

I think I will follow the advice I got here and go with a .308 in a Remington 700 or Winchester Model-70 .

The model 70 Stealth is a bit more pricey than the rest, but its around 3lbs heavier, so that'll kill recoil even more. But would it be too much for hunting ? Just seems like its accuracy would be a little better.

Anyway, thank you everyone for your replies.

Another option is the win .264 mag. I have used this to hunt whitetail for years.

Tang, you would be better off just sticking with the hunting weight rifle, rather than lugging around the heavy barrel model, more suited to targets and varmint shooting. You can't go wrong with the 308 win, and the recoil will not be a problem. There will be enough accuracy in the hunting model for deer, you could always get it bedded and floated, if it was not up to holding good grouping. 2 inche groups are enough for deer, after all they are big targets. hope this helps.

cheers closs :cool:

I couldn't care less which rifle/cartridge you choose to use as long as it does the job humainly. That said, when you use to much gun I see two issues second one first here, wasted meet due to being blood shot and or blown away, if that is not the case then it is not too much or too little. Second issue here and one that should be first for every hunter is safety. If your bullet won't stop for 500yds minimum and you can only see 75, who/what might get hit. If you can humanely take an animal with a lighter cartridge or a slower one that won't carry as far but is enough for the shots you will take than use the lighter or slower (which may actually be heavier ) cartridge.
At the range with the backstop use whatever you want. But in the woods, think about how far it will carry and whether you know what is behind it.

Thats a very good point. It would be a real bad day to get blind sided by someones stray .300 mag bullet.

Thanks for bringing that up.

Tang...
Lot's of advice here but I'm sold on the 444 Marlin. This caliber in any of the Marlins, new or old, with the wide range of bullets offered by BTB... and it will do anything you want and beyond.

I hunt with two fellows and they both have 300 Win. Mag., a common cartridge here is South Texas. They shoot factory ammo and I shoot handloads but they will not shoot at the range against my 444P. Out at the ranch, the kill'n seems the same. Pretty much anything drops dead.

I couldn't care less which rifle/cartridge you choose to use as long as it does the job humainly. That said, when you use to much gun I see two issues second one first here, wasted meet due to being blood shot and or blown away, if that is not the case then it is not too much or too little. Second issue here and one that should be first for every hunter is safety. If your bullet won't stop for 500yds minimum and you can only see 75, who/what might get hit. If you can humanely take an animal with a lighter cartridge or a slower one that won't carry as far but is enough for the shots you will take than use the lighter or slower (which may actually be heavier ) cartridge.
At the range with the backstop use whatever you want. But in the woods, think about how far it will carry and whether you know what is behind it.

A fair point regarding safety, but keep in mind any centerfire rifle can launch a bullet several miles. So the safe backstop suggestion should apply equally to all hunting.....

I just looked up some ballistics on the 8x57, it seems a little weak to me. I must not have a good grasp on the Muzzle Energy of these guns.
8x57 JS (170 RN) 2360fps\2100ft-lbs at the muzzle.

But I suppose cheap ammo and super power are two different things all together.
.308 seems to have relative cheap ammo. Winchester Ballistic Silvertips are $19.99 for 150 or 168gr .
.308 Win. (150 Sp) 2820fps\2648ft-lbs

So down to my last question, what kind of recoil does a .308 have ? Compared to say a 12 gauge with 3" mag Turkey Loads. Im more familar with shotguns than rifles.

Would a .308 be something I could shoot a lot without it killing me ?


Guys, I really appreciate you putting up with all my questions and lending me advice.


A 308 wont be bad at all if you are comparing to any of the magnum calibers. The surplus ammo availible doesnt kick bad at all. I was told that a 300wm is about the same recoil wise as 12g slug off the bench. I dont know if thats true, but i do know a 308 doesnt recoil as much as 12g slug. I consider myself recoil sensitive and i shoot the 308 for several hours when i go shooting. That usually equals about 60 rounds and thats usually enough for me. From what I know and have seen and been told, a magnum is not a good choice for a first rifle. Ive heard that you can load a 30-06 close to 300mag specs if you want, or shoot lighter stuff too. But if you want a magnum, you'll defnitely smile when you will see what it will do to water jugs (and deer).

Just another newbie with a nickle. 2bits and sureshot seem to make the most sense to me. I am from s.w. wyo with miles of open space and find it odd that in the 30's and 40's my grandfathers had no problem knocking down mulies and elk with 25-35's and 32-20's but in the last 5 years the min. is a 250 gr. at 4200 fps, game and population be ****ed. I worked around Harvard Ill. a few years ago and was taken back when all that was on the ammo shelves were mags and ultra mag yet was hard pressed to find a clearing more than a half mile. Not what I call a good backstop.