I have revised some of my thinking on maximum loads for the .30-30 improved and thought I would share them.
I have been shooting a 20" Winchester M-94 B. B. in .307 and two 20" .30-30 Improved rifles side by side for several weeks now and have reached some new conclusions. I have previously said that with Hodgdon BLc2, 335 and 4895 along with Winchester 748; we can safely achieve 3000 fps with the 110-grain bullets, 2700 fps with the 125/130-grain bullets, 2500 fps with the 150-grain bullets and 2300 fps with the 170 grains bullets. I believe these statements are still valid for the Winchester M-94AE and the Marlin 336 with 20" barrel.
I have suggested that with Hodgdon Varget and Alliant Reloader 15 that 2400-fps with the 170-grain bullets was safely attainable. I no longer feel this is true.
I have been shooting the Speer 170 grain JFN bullet in the 20" Marlin 336 and Winchester M-94AE at 2400 fps using Hodgdon Varget and Alliant Reloader 15. I have had no problems with extraction, case life or any other signs of excessive pressure in either rifle with these loads. By comparing velocities between the .307 (using published load data that has pressure information) with our .30-30 Improved results it has become obvious that our loads are exceeding 50,000 CUP by a considerable margin. Some of our .30-30 Improved loads have generated velocities that exceed those obtained in the .307 utilizing maximum published loads for that caliber.
All of our previous .30-30 Improved load data has been used in several different rifles in hot weather without difficulty. We have used Varget and RL 15 only in cold weather and will not repeat any of our "higher velocity" tests in hot weather. A 170-grain bullet at 2300 fps from a 20" barrel is a considerable increase compared to real world velocities we have chronographed using the standard .30-30 in lever action rifles. I have killed quite a number of deer with the .307 and a 170-grain bullet at 2350 fps. This is a killing combination.
The results we have obtained certainly validate the cartridge case shape theories of P. O. Ackley. His straight wall, sharp shouldered case appears to be able to withstand much higher pressure than I care to regularly work at, without any outward sign of distress. I have obtained a real Improvement with good accuracy and see no reason to tempt fate. 2300 fps with the 170-grain bullet is plenty for me.

Am pleased to see this post; it's more in line with what I believe happens in improved lever gun chamberings. Believe the majority of the improved chambers are being loaded to much higer pressures than their non-improved counterparts, and the vel. gains reported are more about that increased pressure than the volume gained. Primer condition and extraction are not reliable when comparing a new chamber and a less tapered case design.

The old "signs" of pressure that were more-or-less valid with the original tapered case don't show up at the same pressure levels in the improved case. IF a reloaded until those old signs apper in the new less-tapered chamber, the pressure level is higher.

If the pressure were kept the same, should only earn velocity that equals 1/2 the percentage differnece of increased volume. Any more is probably the result of increased pressures.

Leave it to other's to debate the ability of these actions to live at the higher pressures, will still stick to the old indicator: if a case survives 10 full sharge relaods without expanding the primer pocket (or otherwise self destructing) will continue to use that load....if it won't, time to work down a little bit.

It would be interesting to see the results of one of the electric transducer/stain gauge pressure testing chronys with the Improved loads. Could you calibrate the unit with the Improved chamber to establish a meaningful baseline pressure?

Reb

I believe a baseline could be established by an experienced operator.
I have considered investing in a test and sending some loads to Western Powder Company just to see.
Part of my problem is I am an "old guy" and think in CUP. Todays thinking is PSI.
The interesting thing to me is that while load testing with the .30-30 Improved I have only felt that I was working in the danger zone once or twice. All other loads I have tested were obviously high pressure but the outside indicators were not alarming. The direct comparison with the .307 is what got my attention. Certain loads in the .30-30 Improved exceed the velocity of maximum published loads for the .307, with the same length barrel. I am not real smart but I did hear a little bell ringing in the distance...
The amazing thing is the ability of the Ackley Improved case shape to reduce the back thrust and allow the rear lock up lever action rifle to shoot these loads without a hint of sticky extraction or shortened case life.
Also of note is the apparent reserve strength in both the Winchester M-94AE and the Marlin 336.
A review of David White's post in the thread on Ackley Improved cartridges helps to visualize whats going on.

I have a friend that necks down 375Win. brass to 30-30.Then he fireforms with a simi-light load in his 30-30 AI. He says that he can add another 150-200 fps using the 150's and the 170's out of his 30-30 AI. Although i own a 30-30 AI i have never tried this procedure.He says that he can match .300Savage ballistics. Power is GREAT but-------GOOD SHOOTIN'----pruhdlr

I have a friend who wanted to use .375 Winchester brass in his .30-30AI. After some debate I worked up some test brass. I loaded 170 grain Sierra JFN bullets ahead of 38.0 grains of Hodgdon Varget (I now consider this load to be OVER MAXIMUM - It is NOT recommended!) with Winchester large rifle primers. The only difference in these loads was the cartridge case. All of the cases used were trimmed to the same length and all have been previously fired in a 20" Marlin 336 .30-30 AI. All cases were full length resized.
Loaded Winchester .30-30 cases had an average weight of 327.1 grains. The average velocity was 2,412 fps. Fired cases measured from .4210" to .4216" at the pressure ring,
Loaded Federal .30-30 cases weighed 328.2 grains. The average velocity was 2,406 fps. Pressure ring measurements were pretty uniform at .4211".
Loaded Super-X .32 Special cases weighed 325.8 grains. Average velocity was 2,402 fps. The largest pressure ring measurement was .4216".
The loaded .375 Winchester cases weighed 339.6 grains. Average velocity was 2,463 fps. The largest pressure ring measurement was .4218". Two other cases measured .4217". .
All cases were again trimmed using the Lee cases trimmer. Only the .375 Winchester cases had any metal removed. Each .375 cases had metal removed from the case mouth for about half of the circumference of the case mouth.

I am not against the idea of using .375 Winchester brass for .30-30 Improved. All this means is to be careful about switching cases. Load data is not interchangeable for different cases. I have not had any brass life trouble when I used new .30-30 cases to form the .30-30 Improved.
It may be that the .375 case could give a small advantage when use in a TC Contender. Perhaps David White has some thoughts on this?

William,
I want to let you know that I enjoy your posts on the 30-30 AI. You do a great job explaining things and you are very detail oriented. Are you keeping some kind of journal on all your experiments and testing on this cartridge? I hope you are. I for one would be interested in it. I hope to someday have a lever gun chambered in the 30-30 AI. Keep up the good work.
Cary

I have revised some of my thinking on maximum loads for the .30-30 improved and thought I would share them.

2300 fps with the 170-grain bullet is plenty for me.


William, I agree - at 2300fps, a 170gr bullet is indeed an excellent combination for a wide range of game.

In addition, I would suggest anyone read what Paco Kelly had to say about the care and feeding of the 30-30 & 30-30 Improved.

http://www.sixgunner.com/backissues/paco/3030Again.htm

7.62X51R REVISITED

(Way down in this article, Paco has this to say 'bout "Improved 30-30s)

............."All this is to say his 30-30 Ackley Improved is the way to turn a 30-30 into a far better, far more powerful rifle round. More case space, to hold more powder, to sustain the pressure over a longer period, for higher velocities. Many say for the gain it’s not worth the trouble. REALLY? Just take the above load a 130 grain Speer over 38 grains of BLC-2 for 2600 fps in a standard 30-30. My 30-30 Imp (and I have had four them in the last 20 years) takes 42.3 grains of BL-C2 and the Speer 130 gr. flat point and gives 2877 fps at near the same pressure...36,100 CUP. I can easily break 3000 fps and stay under 40,000 CUP. The Imp cartridge of the standard 30-30 will give from 10 to 15% more velocity if you know how to feed it.

It’s a whole new ball game and a whole new testing of powders to get the best loads...but I think it’s worth it. One of the 30-30 Ackley’s I built as a bench gun for absolutely excellent accuracy on a Winchester 94 action went to Jim Taylor...and I think he passed it on to someone living in a wilderness somewhere. But I used that gun to take a great deal of money from a non believer about the killing range of 30-30s and leverguns...by whacking a AZ antelope way...way out there. I couldn’t have done it with a standard 30-30 chamber.....the drop would have been too great to trust all that money to it. He basically wound up paying for the rifle and all the work put into it...but I kept it and the antelope...he learned the lesson many never believe...the 30-30 Imp is a cartridge that changes the picture of the 30-30 completely.

The only difference in my 30 Imp and Ackley’s was my design keeps his 35 degree shoulder angle and body shape, but I move the shoulder forward. Where Ackley keeps the neck length at the standard case of over 4 tenths of an inch...I move it forward to the length of the 7 Waters case just over 3 tenths of an inch. I can neck up 7 Waters cases...or as I did in the old days load cast bullets in the 30-30 cases way out, so they would go into the rifling and then fire form so the case doesn’t stretch at the web. Once fire formed correctly...even the normal stretching of the standard 30-30 case from resizing and firing is almost eliminated.

The water weight capacity of a FC 30-30 case is 44 grains...that’s water not powder...the same case necked down and fire formed in the 7 Waters chamber gives a water capacity of 47 grains...and my Imp 30-30 holds 50 grains. That is six grains water capacity over the standard case. The standard 30-30 case is a 40 grain powder case plus, at the top end, to the base of the neck...the 7 Waters is around 44 grains plus, and my Imp is 47 grains plus to the base of the neck. That is not reloading powder weights...it’s all according to the bullet and powder of course. This case allows the use of slow powders like WW 760 and heavy bullets for outstanding velocities. For example, 42.5 grains of 760 gives a 180 grain cast bullet just under 2550 fps. Take a look in your reloading books for 180 grain bullets at 2550 to 2600 fps and the cartridge case it takes to get it there, I think you will be surprised..."

I posted this for information only - and strongly suggest everyone read the entire article and note Paco's warnings and other tips on loading the 30-30 before trying any maximum loads in their own rifles...

GOOD LUCK!

Cturpin
Thanks for the kind words. I often feel that I am not at all clear in my posts so you have made me feel a little better.
I am keeping a journal of these tests. I have discussed my notes with some people "who know" and have been told that no one would touch them. There is simply a lot of liability involved when writing about a high-pressure wildcat and the light lever action rifles.
My interest in the .30-30 Improved started in the 1960's. In those pre-internet days I never found anyone who had seen one. Sam Fadala was the first modern writer to document his work with the cartridge in a realistic manner. Few of us give him the credit he deserves in this regard. The Beartooth Forum has several regular contributors who have significant experience with the .30-30 Improved. Greg Mushial and John Anderson come to mind. Taylor is just getting started and should have some interesting observations to share with us soon.
I suggest that if you are interested in a .30-30 Improved that you buy a set of Lee dies now, while they are reasonably priced. The dies are the most significant expense in this project. My RCBS dies cost more than the combined cost of a used Winchester M-94 AND a Marlin 336.

Slim
Just want to express my appreciation for your work and posts. I've learn alot about my ackley from you. I have a long ways to go in developing loads, but I strongly feel that it is worth the effort. I would have never thought to use a win 94. I didn't think they were strong enough. Mine is a Marlin. Now that the weather is warming up, I've got some 130 speers to work up and I'm still trying for a 170 rem load.
Doug

Cturpin
Thanks for the kind words. I often feel that I am not at all clear in my posts so you have made me feel a little better.
I am keeping a journal of these tests. I have discussed my notes with some people "who know" and have been told that no one would touch them. There is simply a lot of liability involved when writing about a high-pressure wildcat and the light lever action rifles.
My interest in the .30-30 Improved started in the 1960's. In those pre-internet days I never found anyone who had seen one. Sam Fadala was the first modern writer to document his work with the cartridge in a realistic manner. Few of us give him the credit he deserves in this regard. The Beartooth Forum has several regular contributors who have significant experience with the .30-30 Improved. Greg Mushial and John Anderson come to mind. Taylor is just getting started and should have some interesting observations to share with us soon.
I suggest that if you are interested in a .30-30 Improved that you buy a set of Lee dies now, while they are reasonably priced. The dies are the most significant expense in this project. My RCBS dies cost more than the combined cost of a used Winchester M-94 AND a Marlin 336.
Slim,
I think you're right about the Lee dies and I am seriously thinking of getting a set even though I don't have the gun yet. Thanks again.

Fuudog
The .30-30 Improved is an interesting topic for discussion on an open forum. I am surprised at the number of people who have a rifle reamed for the cartridge. Our collective thoughts on pressure have been very interesting.
The ability of the various rifles to handle pressure is another interesting topic. We have converted three Winchester Model 94's and one Marlin 336. The oldest Model 94 is a parts gun and will not handle quite as high pressure as the newer rifles. A late production, top-eject Model 94 and the Marlin 336 appear to be about equal with each other, strength wise. The Angle Eject Model 94 appears to be just a bit stronger. We have found that the Angle Eject will handle about one grain of powder more across the board, than the Marlin. This is not a large sample of guns though. Our goal has been to load ammunition that is interchangeable between the various rifles. We have found that our initial velocity goals were met equally by both the Winchester M-94 and the Marlin 336.

I believe you will find the 130-grain Speer to be very accurate.
The Winchester M-94AE likes these loads:
41.5 gr. Hodgdon 4895 2,709 fps.
34.0 gr. IMR 4198 2,711 fps.
39.0 gr. Hodgdon 322 2,732 fps.

The most accurate load in the Marlin has been 35.0 gr. of Alliant RL 7 for 2,690 fps.

Hi, I am new to this forum and found it by searching for 30- 30 AI info. I have a Savage 219 30-30 with a 26" barrel that is quite accurate with factory loads. I haven't messed with it for years but decided I needed a single shot rifle for deer and black bear as an alternative to dragging the big .30 cal magnums around that I use for elk. Do you guys think this rifle is a good candidate for rechambering to 30-30 AI and if so what gains would I have over standard ammo? I am going to work a load up this morning using 165 speer BTSP I have and IMR 4064 powder and will have a better idea of the performance of this rifle with standard brass. I will post my results later today. Thanks.

Byron

Snakeguy
I like the 219 Savage rifles but I do not think it is a good candidate for improving. Some of the 219 rifles have a rather soft lock lug and they can be battered with hot loads in the standard caliber. The 219's with the least collector value, those that have the side lever, seem to have the "strongest" lock up. I guess because they were the last ones.
The 219 rifles are good cast bullet shooters and with the 26" barrel you will get higher velocity with the standard cartridge anyway. In fact, your results with the standard cartridge will be of interest to most of us. IMR 4064 is a good starting place for your handloads. You may want to try Hodgdon Varget or Alliant Reloader 15 in the future. There are lots of .30-30 threads on this board to give you hints and advice. I look forward to reading your results.

After shooting from west to east with a south southwest 15-20 MPH wind this morning, I still was able to shoot .34 to 1.5 inch groups with my Savage 219. I was able to develope a load using 36 gr of IMR 4064 , Speer 165 gr BTSP and Federal 210M large rifle primers. My average velocity for this load was 2425 fps, over ten shots my high was 2434 fps and my low was 2413 fps. I was able to push the velocity to over 2500 fps without signs of pressure or ejection problems, but the load was compressed and I am not a fan of shooting compressed loads due to their unpredictability in warmer weather. Any way I reached my goal of 2400 fps. This rifle has a side lock lever that still lines up down the center when closed and although it has a few years on it, it only has a few hundred factory rounds through it. After working up a load, I will only use it for hunting and typically a box of ammo will last few years, depending on my frequency of hunting trips. The gun really seems to like the Speer 165's and with a BC of .477 they have great potential although maybe not at 30-30 velocities. I had a 300 win mag that really loved these bullets and could be loaded quite hot. After todays session, my suspitions that these bullets generate less chamber pressure than many of their counterparts especially partition bullets was more or less confirmed. After loading Hornady and nosler bullets of 165 and 180 gr in my 300 win mag, the speer BTSPs were consistently able to be loaded to higher velocities. These are just my experiences, someone elses may be different.

If I decide to improve this rifle, I am curious as to what velocity gains I may see over my load I worked up today. Any input would be appreciated.
Byron

Snakeguy

2425 fps is good performance from the standard .30-30 Those extra inches pay off.
We have shot some of the Speer 165-grain spitzer boat tail bullets in the Improved case. 40.0 grains of Hodgdon Varget gave us 2461 fps in the Winchester M-94AE and 2490 fps in the Marlin 336. Both have 20-inch barrels. 39.0 grains of Varget is a more accurate load in both rifles with the Winchester getting 2419-fps and sub one-inch groups at 100 yards.
The boat tail bullets have less bearing surface and less friction. I liked the Nosler flat nose, solid base bullets for that reason. Those were fine bullets.
I don’t have a 26" .30-30 Improved barrel. I would estimate a gain of 150 fps if the 25-fps per inch of barrel theory holds true. There may be some reality imposed by expansion ratio and friction. You could probably still nudge 2600 fps with a 26" barrel using slow powders like Varget or Reloader 15.
I still don’t think I would Improve the 219. It is a nice old rifle as is, and very desirable. Is yours grooved for a scope mount? A new NEF Handi rifle would be a different story!

The problem with using .375 Winchester cases for the AI is that, although the .375 is thicker and stronger brass than .30-30 brass, it has less capacity. With the same loads it should generate higher pressures. A larger capacity case generally permits higher velocities at the same pressure levels. That is one reason for the large cases of the traditional 'African cartridges', not to increase performance. The only SAFE way, all other things being equal, to increase ballistics without increasing pressure is by increasing case capacity.

Depending on the adhesion of the case to the chamber walls to reduce bolt thrust is unwise and potentially very dangerous. Any reduction of thrust, if any exists at all, would be very minor and what if either the adhesion or the case failed? If one is depending on that small "IF" then one is operating too close to the dangerous edge of safety. What if the case or chamber happen to get a little oil on them? What if the case should separate? BINGO!

A .375 Winchester or 30-30 AI case is about 1.3 inches in circumference and the case walls are about .030 inch thick. That means that the total cross sectional area of the brass case is only about .04 square inch, or 1/25th sq. in. Does anyone really want to trust their safety to the ability of .04 s.i. of brass, used brass at that, to withstand 40,000+ ponds of pressure? Not me.

Any real advantage of AI cartridges depends not on the cases ability to restrain pressures or prevent case stretching but, instead, on their increased capacity (small though that it is) and the fact that a minimum taper case with a steep shoulder facilitates extraction of a case that has already stretchred.

When a cartridge is fires the case expands to fit the chamber, whatever it is, whether the case adheres to the chamber or not. If the headspace increases due to the firing pressure, whether due to lug spring, on bolt compression, the case is going to fit the 'new' chamber.

This happens whether firing improved cases or 'traditional' cases with heavy body taper and long tapered shoulders. When the pressure drops the resiliency of the case cause it to shrink, releasing its hold on the chamber walls. This is what permits easy extraction. However in a gun with a 'springy' action the drop in pressure also causes the headspace to return to more or less normal length.

Usually when a fired case rebounds to nearer normal diameter it pulls away from the chamber walls. Unfortunately with heavily tapered cases that same small amount of 'windage' is offset by bolt spring driving the case forward, deeper into the chamber where the chamber diameter itself diminishes.

The result is that as the return of the bolt drives the expanded fired case into a now shorter chamber the expanded case is literally wedged [/SIZE] into the shorter chamber. This bolt rebound is what causes case sticking and difficult extraction. It is just like driving a wedge into a hammer or ax handle, thes less taper the less wedging effect.

Great writing guys... I can't wait to get my rifle back from Boses! I'm going to purchase the RSI pressure testing equipment... hanging up on the selection of a new laptop computer to drive that stuff now. I'm going to do pressure testing on all three of my Marlin's, the 30-30AI, 35 Rem., and 444. I figure that project ought to expend lots of ammo in prep for hunting season.

I bought the Lee Pacesetter dies before the first of the year. The lady said that they will continue to make them as the demand remains but they are made in a finite run. When they are gone, they wait until an interest is expressed through orders and then they make another batch. They were $34.98 but no shipping as they consider them a special order item and never charge shipping on special orders. I was interested in seeing the charge table that is included with their dies as I've found this information quite useful with other calibers, but the loads are for the parent cartridge... bummer.

Ranch Dog,
This should be exciting!
I know the pressures are high in my top .30-30AI loads, not certain I will like hearing how high!
What I would like to see is the pressure curve on some of Greg's cast bullet loading data. I'll bet it is Short and Steep!

Hello to all - I just joined your forum thanks to Slim's direction. The information on the AI is what I've been looking for. Thanks, riley

Hello to all - I just joined your forum thanks to Slim's direction. The information on the AI is what I've been looking for. Thanks, riley

Glad to have you here!

I just stumbled onto this section. I usually stick to the lever guns area. This new info on th30-30 imp. is great. I have been toying with the idea of a 7mm ste, but now I think I might just spend the hundred or so dollars and just rechamber. Thanks!

Well lets not loose this post and get it back to the top.
There is a lot of information.
A lot of interst in the 30/30 AI
I am eager to learn more as I look at that ol' 30/30
Guess I order them dies.
Happy

Just a little on the Savage 219 had a friend up here in Michigan had one of these with a rust pitted chamber, how it got that way he did not know. When looking for an alternative to rechamber. My gunsmith Jim Davis, recommended 30-40 krag and it was made so by him. This rifle is still being used to this day with handloads by the friend.

Wagner
A couple questions.
1. I understand your math and agree with .04si. However, pressure is expressed in PSI, that means .04si isn't exposed to 40,000 pounds, it is exposed to 400 pounds, wich doesn't seem exsessive.
2. I can see how a springy action could affect acuracy, but the chamber is in the barrel, and it seems to me that that would be the primary area to look for chamber issues.
Just my .02
Ron

Glad to have you here!

Slim, It's good too see you still working with the 30-30AI, there are alot of people out there that should be converted to true believers of P.O's best developement! I haven't been doing much with the 30-30AI or the tomcat here lately as I built up a 30 Lever Power for testing, will let you know how it goes!

Regards,