I sure am glad that there's a Winchester specific forum here now. As much as I like my Marlins I'm also partial to Win 94s (hey...they're leverguns too!).

Anyway, I've been trying to put together a collection of BBs in all chamberings they were offered. Right now I've got all but the 444 Marlin sitting in my safe and, thanks to one of our fellow members, should have that last one within the next month or so. We see a lot of posts around here about the 356 and 375 Winchesters (both vastly underrated cartridges), which appear to be in the most demand. And there is an occasional post about the 307. But I haven't seen anyone post about the 444 in quite some time.

Are there any BB94 444 owners out there? If so what can you tell me about this rifle? I'm primarily collecting these but they're all shooters (except the 307). I believe that the BB94 is about 1 lb lighter than the standard 444SS and slightly lighter than the 444P. However, having the slimmer stock and lacking the ports of the Outfitter I wonder how it feels on the butt end with stiff loads? I can't wait to shoot this one and may even consider it for elk duty this fall (it's almost time to send in applications already...wow time flies). Are the throats on these on the short side as the 356? Any problems keeping the rifles in one piece under heavy recoil? I recall hearing some people complain about cracked wrists one time, somewhere...anything to that?

Bart
I have a 17 3/4" Timber Rifle. I like this rifle quite a bit. I have had no mechanical trouble with it at all. I like the pistol grip and the magazine retention stud. I cannot see how a properly set up rifle would have problems. I too have read about a number of troubles with this rifle.
The receiver does not have the cut out that the Marlin does and wide meplat bullets must be seated deeper into the case than for the Marlin rifles. For example a 310 gr Lee seated to 2.560" will not enter the magazine through the loading gate. If you lower the lever until the bolt is back but the carrier has not risen, you can drop this round into the action and place another round in the chamber. When you close the action the lower round will be pushed into the magazine and you have a two-shooter. The 2.560" cartridge will feed from the magazine into the chamber.
Loaded to 2.490" the 310-grain Lee will enter the magazine through the load gate and feeds fine.
40.0 grains of IMR 4198 is a good all around load. Here how it performs with different cast bullets.
The Lyman 429640HP bullet gets 1965fps it weighs 270 grains lubed and gas checked. Loaded to 2.535" this bullet is very accurate in my rifle.
The Lyman 429244 gets 1948fps and must be seated to the top of the upper driving band, 2.530". This bullet is also nicely accurate.
The Lyman 429421 gets 1933fps and seated to the top of the drive band is 2.560" OAL.
The 260 grain LBT WFN gets 1905 fps but the powder is heavily compressed and the COAL is 2.560" This is an accurate load in my rifle. It will not feed through the magazine.
The 280-grain LBT WFN gets 1899fps and is also accurate. This bullet must be seated long for this powder charge, at 2.585" it will not feed through the magazine.
The 310-grain Lee WFN gets 1947 fps and at 2.490" will feed through the magazine.

Even with the ports this rifle kicks a bit when shot from the bench. I use a PAST pad when shooting groups. I do not notice recoil when hunting. The ports make this one of the most unpopular rifles in my family. My wife will not hunt with me or go to the range when I use this rifle. On gray days 4198 sure puts out an impressive tongue of fire from the short barrel.
The dull bead blast finish on my rifle has held up well for a couple of hunting seasons. The front sight is poor because it is a rounded bead. Lyman, Marbles and Williams all have replacement sights that are far superior. If you are mounting a scope I suggest Weaver bases with Millett Angle Loc rings. I shot a Redfield mount apart with just a few shots with the 310-grain Lee. The Angle Loc rings have never budged.

Why are you saving your .307? This is my favorite Big Bore cartridge. I can get wordy when writing about it!

bartmasterson
I have owned all the win.BB's at different times and bought a .444 when they first came out. It was the most accurate one I had. Mine was the standard 20'' carbine. I loaded the 265 grn. hornady bullet .I couldn't believe how accurate that rifle was.Of courselike a fool I traded it.It also had a pretty hefty recoil. Now I only have a 375 bb.that I will not get rid of!Good Luck.

Slim,

Thanks very much for the information. I learned something...I think. The rifle I'm looking at is the standard 20" barreled Big Bore model. I would suppose that the OAL/loading problem will be there on that one too (?). Being limited in OAL will place some limitations on performance as your numbers indicate. While those velocities aren't for the faint of heart they aren't what I've seen in my buddy's Marlin either. On the other hand, a 320gr CP at over 2100 fps isn't much fun to shoot either...even in the heavier 444SS. It sounds like performance similar to the 375 Win is what I can expect, with a little better performance with the heavy weights...which is usually the case with the larger bore and powder capacity. I don't intend to scope it and will leave the Williams FP on it.

As for the 307, I picked this one up last fall for a good price in unfired condition. Since I got what I believe to be a real decent deal on it I plan to shoot it. Just haven't gotten around to tooling up yet. As a matter of fact I haven't gotten around to doing much shooting or loading at all this winter. I'd sure like to hear about your 307 experiences ... and any others related to the BB chamberings. I'm pretty sure I've seen your posts on the 356 before too.

Of the 4 chamberings available in the BB series I have gained some experience with the 356 and a lot of experience with the 375, the latter mostly in a Marlin. It's a toss up in my opinion as to which of these is tops. However my 356 will shoot tighter groups than my (Marlin) 375. The 356 will outperform the 375 with 220gr bullets and lighter, and only about equal it with the 250gr slug. I've seen some numbers quoted for both of these cartridges on the various forums that make me run for cover. I stick with the book for the most part, or with data that came from a source that I know I can trust (like Marshall). I have not tried any of Paco Kelly's 3500 fpe loads, and likely won't.

Now I'm getting wordy. Kind of hard not to when the topic is so dear to your heart though, huh?

Marlin Shooter, I just PM'ed you.

Good shootin'!

The BB444 arrived today (thanks Starrbow!) and it is one nice rifle, perhaps the best of the bunch..maybe not but it ranks right up there. (BTW, you can depend this guy's description of anything he's selling you. Since we don't have any kind of "feedback" mechanism here I mention this.) Now it's time to start thinking seriously about what to feed it....

Slim, the Lee and Lyman bullets appear to favor those who cast their own. Do you know of a commercial source for these? Also, were your OALs based on what would feed reliably or placement of cannelures? I like the LBT designs and use them in other cartridges but it sounds like these make the repeater into a 2 shooter. That's not all that bad BTW, but would prefer to find something I can stuff the mag full of if I want to. Looks like Remington or Hornady brass are about the only choices...any recommendations?

I wanted to post a picture of my Bevy of BigBores but don't have time to do it right now so will defer that for another evening.

Bartman
My overall length choices for the Lee 310-gr. bullet were based on being able to load them into the magazine. I may have mentioned that making the turn from the loading gate into the magazine tube with the wide meplat bullet is the limiting factor and the reason for shortening the COAL. The Marlin rifles have a similar limitation with wide meplat bullets.
In the Winchester M-94 you can load a Lee 310 gr. bullet to 2.55" and drop it onto the lowered carrier, place another round into the chamber and close the action. This will push the lower round into the magazine and you will have the other round in the chamber. The round will feed when you cycle the action. It's not worth the effort though.
You are not really losing any performance at the shorter overall length. You might search for the penetration tests by Englander on this forum and you will see that the Lee 310 grain bullet, or any LBT type bullet for that matter, will penetrate far farther than you might think.
I will search around a little and see if I can find were this was discussed a few years ago. Dale McGee (I think) had quite a bit of experience to share on this subject. Also several others brought me up to speed on the Lee factory crimp die. I believe that is your best search key for the subject of overall length with the .444.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=1850&highlight=factory

Bartman, This link will get you started. Search Leverguns General using the word factory. Go to the last or earliest threads and work your way forward. there are several good threads on the .444 and Winchester rifles.
A search by names starting with the HappyKaboomer will bring up a few more interesting Winchester 444 threads.

You have probably fired your 444 Win by now, but
I must say mine is one of the smoothest levering
rifles I have used. Strange with those long fat
rounds going up into the chamber.
They do kick a bit though, smack my cheek pretty
good too. I like "power in a package" and I prefer
the winchester platform. So a Marlin big bore dosen't
even call to me. I am quite content.

How are you and your 444 doing?

Slim, Thanks for the pointers on previous threads related to this. I see some that are familiar, esp related to rifles shooting loose, etc. You've been a big help.

CAW, Yes I ran a box of factory Rem 240 gr through it. Wasn't too impressed with accuracy with those loads. Starrbow sent me a variety of HC bullets and load data to try. I have the dies now but don't have the shell holder or factory crimp die yet. Some of the loads he's tried in his Marlin look downright intimidating in that light Winchester. I'll at least pick up a shell holder this week. Lee equipment is harder to find around here for some reason. The crimp dies might have to wait. A Decelerator pad might be somewhere in the near future too.

I own a couple of Marlins in addition to the Winchesters. I like both and will buy more of each I'm sure. The Winchesters sure are slick handling, slim and purdy. Marlins "feel" stouter and provide a good grip while providing a little more weight to soak up recoil. IMO In the meantime I'm having more fun with the Winchester...