Good morning all I have just registered on this forum.I own a Portuguese contract 3 band long rifle with a pristine bore and which I shoot.I am interested to talk with anybody who owns and shoots a snider long rifle.I have read much about the snider on this and other forums but ,surprisingly, not a lot of detail on loads and projectiles.I am keen to get my rifle shooting well but I don't really know what I can expect from it in terms of group sizes etc. How well do they shoot when they shoot well?

Since your bore is so good and it's a 3 bander. Use a .590" round ball and you won't go wrong with that slow twist barrel. You can push it with 70 to 100 grains of FFg black with good results. The ball weighs about 310 grains so it's good and heavy.

I just shot a 5.5" group yesterday with my slow twister at 100yards. I used 80gr FFg, with a bit of Cream-of-wheat filler and a well lubed wad and a round ball on top. The barrel was fouled when I fired that group. Quite good enough for hunting!

I have 2 Snider Enfields with the slow twist barrels and they each take a steady diet of round balls.

Anneal your cases between firings and they will last longer.

A guy on my other forum tried the 58cal Lee REAL bullet not long ago. He had tumbling and keyholes in the targets at 50-60 yards. One of the other guys said he loaded it down to much, I think it was 50gr FFg or the like. Loaded up with 90gr or so would get it stabalized at the higher speed and might work, I will try some in the future.

You could try that bullet if you can find some, they are short bullets and have wide bands (.594 at top) and might work if pushed hard.

There are bullet moulds around specifically designed for the Snider ranging from 430 to 520gr or so. The 430 and 440 seem to work OK in the slow twist Sniders(they are .590" as well)

If you want to try any of these I can let you know where to check. Either way you deside to go, a .590 round ball will work and those moulds can be found in several places.

Carignan thank you for response.I lived in Canada for a while.Lovely country lovely people.
I have been persevering with my Snider for some time nowI have tried the round ball and a number of other bullet profiles lengths weights and calibres I was not impressed by any of the results.Most of the bullet types available seem to bear some resemblance the origional Snider bullet and this in turn seems to trace its origins back to the origional P53 Enfield minie round.It also seemed to me that all the subsequent modifications to the projectile demonstrated problems with stability and fouling[mainly the latter].I came to the conclusion that as the Snider is a breech loader and not a muzzle loader .this type of projectile was never going to work The bore is not swept clean during the loading process as it was with the enfield paper cartridge The projectiles don't come anywhere near complience with the dictates of the Greenhill Formula they do not sit directly on the powder charge and in any case a hollow base is not necessary if the projectile fits the barrel.
Bearing all this in mind I set to and designed my own bullet and attended night school to aquire the necessary engineering skills to make my own moulds I have now done this and have cast and used bullets from the mould.I have not had a chance to test it properly yet[we cannot shoot here during high summer becase of the risk of bushfire]the testing that I did do showed promise I was shooting" clover leaves" at fifty yards.I dont know if this is good bad or indifferent One reads so many conflicting accounts of the Snider's capability.
.I am new to the game of black powder shooting In the past I have always bought my ammo from the store in the reasonable certainty that it will hit what I shoot at .Black powder shooting seems to be a little different.

Likewise, Australia is quite a place to. I am glad I was there when I had the time and money to go, don't know that I will ever make it back, but I did love it and will always remember.

I am happy enough if I hit pie plate size targets out to 120 yards with these old rifles. Mine have slightly worn rifling and pitting but they do well enough.

You sound like you are on track with your ideas for a mould. I know of several guys that have done the same. I have to rely on what's already around. The round ball, slightly bigger than the grove size has been the only thing I have found yet to work in the 1:78" twist barrels.

The original military rounds went through 9 changes trying to get them to work well in the slow twist 3 banders(long rifle), fast twist 2 banders(short rifle), as well as the various carbines. As a result none really met their full potential, there was always a compromise.

Generally a bullet slightly larger than the grove diameter and fairly short for slow twist and a bit longer for fast twist seems to work. Hollow based bullets generally cause all kinds of grief. Though there are some with just enough of a hollow base for lube that work well.

Bullet lube is important to consistant shooting, I use a thick wad soaked in lard/beeswax based lube and it keeps the fouling minimal and soft.

Thank you for your advice carignan.The best results that that I have obtained to date have been with a 0.590 projectile similar in profile to the origional.I read a lot about people trying to copy the origional by making base plugs out of various materials.Not having the patience I thought "what the ****" and filled the base with hard candle wax and struck it of flush with a hot knife.I then lubricated the bullet as normal.I loaded it into Bertram brass[his factory is close to our range]I loaded 70grains of ffg followed by 15 grains semolina on top of which I placed a milk carton disc slightly larger than the neck[5/8 wad punch] so that it was slightly cupped towards the bullet the idea being that the pressure would force the edges of the disc into the barrel walls and sweep them clean.I got a marked improvement by doing this[I think] but I still think I can do better.I was interested in your use of a lubricated wad I have some loaded up with a felt wad soaked in lubricant but I dont think the felt is stiff enough Its only carpet underlay what do you use?and how thick is your wad.We have our first shoot of the year coming up soon I shall let you know how I get on .Like you I enjoy shooting the snider it is quite different in character to my martinis I always feel as if I am serving an artillery piece when I use it.

the milk carton disk is a good idea. Also my wad is old winter boot liner, very thick but holds a lot of lube. They are easy to work with when using 70-80gr FFg and round balls, but take up a bit too much space for heavier charges and conicals. They seem to work well, I use the same wad in my 54 flinter.

Hope you do well in your shoot! I am in a Snider postal match for the next 3 months and hope to attend a muzzle loader event over the spring and summer at some point.

Check out Circle Fly (are on line)...they have a variety of wads, cardboard and fiber, that you may find useful.

Been a long long time, and the only experinece was with cut down 24ga. brass shells and HB mini ball as a bullet. Back then (late 1960's) there just weren't any components (and no internet...the stone age).

thank you Carrignan and thank you Ribbonstone.
Apropos my question about what I might expect from my snider I came across a site entitled"sir joseph Whitworth-Guns and Steel" wherein performance figures are given for the Enfield P53 rifle.If you have not already read this you may find it to be of some interest.At least I now have some idea as to the upper limits of performance that I can expectfrom my Snider [I think I have myself determined the lower limits] Winter Boots??????

I think the potential of the Snider-Enfield would be better than the P53 Enfield, just because a bullet with correct fit from the breech end can be used. The P53 data will give a good idea and starting point.

I am still surprised that the round ball did not work well for you. Or perhaps you are a bit more particular than I.

I have checked out the lower limits of performance with my Snider long rifle as well. Went through 3 bullet moulds and some other bullets before I got it figured out. I experimented with various lube wads, powder charges, bullets, paper patching etc. and fired nearly 1500 rounds before I started getting good results. Partly because I was new to BPcartridge and did not understand some of the basics. I am confident that I can take any Snider now and get it shooting well fairly quickly. I got my carbine working well in under 50 rounds just recently.

carignan I am happy for you that you have your long rifles working well It gives me hope for mine.The round ball did work reasonably well out to fifty yards but after that I was only able to estimate within the points of the compass where they might have gone [South West I think.] the target being to the South.
I agree with you about the Snider shooting better than the P53.for the reason that the bullet fits the barrel I think also that ,if the bullet is a close fit and not too oversize it is possible to use a harder lead mix.I used 30/1 when I tested my bullet.I have noticed that the rifling in many B.P.firearms is very shallow presumably to mitigate against fouling.I have also read that for worn rifling a harder mix is preferable.It is difficult to measure the depth of the grooves in the snider but I have been told by somebody who should know that I should allow 3 thou for each groove If this is the case then they cannot gain much of a purchase on the bullet.I mention this because with all the bullets that I have used including the round ball the ogive of the bullet curves around to meet the barrel walls directly. Thus forming a perfect wedge trap for the fouling in the barrel.I reasoned that when a shot is fired the bullet either pushes the fouling out of the barrel or rides over it.If the lube is not perfect the latter would be the case.If this were so the bullet might then skid on the rifling and become unstable in flight.When I designed my bullet I therefore determined on a semi wadcutter design thus avoiding the wedge effect embodied in the design of most bullets and round ball I also made the bands wide and the grooves deep in the hopes that the gyroscopic effect might be enhanced.I determined the length by a loose application of the Greenhill formula and made the diameter 0.5865[1/2 thou bigger than the measured diameter over the grooves].These, of course, are the observations of one entirely unschooled in the arcane science of ballistics and may prove to be without basis I note however that the designer of the Lee real bullets you mentioned seems to have incorporated the same features in his[her]bullets.Time will tell.Should my thoughts not pan out in practice I can at least console myself with the knowledge that the holes I might, on occasion, make in my targets are cleaner,rounder and more precise than anybody else's holes.Do you shoot a martini?

I don't know much about the science of it all.
Hopefully yours works out well for you.

As to Martini's-I don't own one but I want to. I have fired 2 nice ones, a Martini-Henry Mk? still in 577/450 and a Swinburn-Martini sporter in 500/450. I like them.

Kind of semi-off topic. Was reading "The rifle in America" (Sharpe). Noticed he claims (in 1938) that the old colied .577 snider case was still being produced for "colonial sales". Not only cheaper, but less likely to be reloaded...guess it was the "keep them dependent" philosophy of colonization.

The "dirt catching" ledge of the SWC (and on some RN bullets have a "false groove" that acts that way as well) was thought to scrape fouling ahead. Can't tell if it really works that way or if it's the increased support offered than makes that style shoot well for me.

May be something to it...a falt based bullet, loaded lighly becasue of the decrease in case volume and the expected resistanc eof fouling, and shot BASE FORWARD, does a decnt job of getting the worst of the BP fouling out of a breech laoding bore.

caragnan. I am not surprised if the snider bullet was still being produced as late as you say.they were commonly used as a sporting round here I have a friend who is interested in our aboriginal heritage and natural history and has travelled widely in the desert interior in pursuit of that interest He once came upon the site of an abandoned mission station and discovered that the burial ground established on a sand dune had been eroded by wind action.The remains of those interred lay exposed on the surface.Whilst examining the skeletons he noticed that one had a snider type projectile lying in the area of the chest cavity.when he examined it under a microscope he found fragments of bone embedded in the lead The skull had been had been removed so he was not able to determine the race.He also found many other projectiles and cases lying around some snider amongst them .A snider sporter was the weapon of choice of our most notorious outlaw Ned Kelly.
A diversion I know but I find such diversions to be part of the attraction of black powder shooting.
To get back to our thread. I was thinking about your remarks re round ball and lubricated wads and I wondered where you placed your wads One would assume that you place them under the bullet on top of the powder.One thing that always bothers me when I think about fouling and lubrication is that ,in a breech loader ,the bullet always has to deal with a dirty barrel.If you are familiar with the Wesley Richards "monkey tail" carbine [considered by some to be the best of the capping carbines]you will remember that the cartridge was a paper cartridge and was fitted with a lubricated wad in the base.this wad remained in the breech after discharge and was pushed into the barrel by the next round and forced up the barrel by the next shot thus sweeping the barrel clean and lubricating it ahead of the bullet I wondered if you had tried putting your wads on top of your round ball instead of underneath.Having said that I should also say that the british government tried the Monkey Tail in Canada and found that it did'nt work in a cold climate I'm not surprised I cant imagine the effect of trying to fire a frozen wad ahead of a bullet.Have you tried this?If not perhaps you may care to try I would be very interested To know if it improved your score and even more interested to know if you survive the experiment.I dont have a round ball mould so I am not able to give it a go.

I quite enjoy the history part of all of it to.

The problem with a wad on top would be a lack of space once the other wad and bullet are sunk deep enough for it to be crimped or waxed into place. I would lose the powder capacity I need.

I don't have too much trouble with fouling(except with my paper-walled cases in the MkIII)
The lube wad I use seems to sweep it out a bit and keeps it soft enough, it builds up a bit, but the accuracy stays resonably well.

I place a bit of C.O.W filler on the powder, lube wad, and seat the ball on top. Works every time in both my MkII** and MkIII Sniders.

Also, some guys duplex with 4759(think thats the one) about 5 to 7.5grains and FFg black on top of that. Sweeps the barrel clean as can be each shot. Pressure is a bit higher so play safe.

caragnan. You have been a mine of information to me.I am very grateful.Pity you don't shoot a Martini.I have six of them in various calibres[they are to Australia what the Snider is to canada]except for my 310 cadet which I shoot as a 32/20 I can't hit a thing with them.Had you owned and shot one we could have made this the longest thread in this or any other forum.

Hopefully it has been of benefit.

I study the Martini rifles a bit, I want to get into it eventually. Perhaps starting another thread on the subject would be good. The ones using them might not jump in here with Snider-Enfield in the title.

Start a new Martini thread for loading here and see what we come up with. We should be able to get yours shooting well. I have heard good reports on them and the 2 I fired before were quite good shooters.

caragnan what are these paper walled cases that you refer to?

caragnan I was just reading some of your other posts and noticed that you have been working on a snider carbine.I recently aquired a "Hay Pattern" rifle.Designed by Colonel Hay who was the director of the school of musketry at Hythe.It was designed with the Idea of using them for target shooting and made by Hollis It is contemporary with and similar in many respects to the P53 Enfield and often mistaken for oneThey were issued to the Victorian and New South Wales militia forces due to a shortage of Enfields at the time of the Crimean war I would like to shoot mine. It is in fairly good condition although the bore is a bit rough.However the slide is missing off the rear sight ladder It seems to be dimensionally identical to the snider rear sight.Did you by any chance source parts for your snider when you were working on it?I don't think I can make one and will have to find one somewhere.Perhaps you can suggest a reliable source?

My long rifles chamber was reamed for full length 24 gauge shotshells. So full length brass 577 cases get beat up really bad in there. I need a .5" dowl and a hatchet to extract cases from the poor old thing. Cases last about 5 firings before getting split. Too expensive to replace, so I cut the good base off at about 2cm, insert a paper wrap, glue it in place, fill with powder-lube wad-.600"round ball and then just trim the paper and fold it over the ball.

This works really well, however, fouling is brutal after a few rounds, only a MkIII action will take this load. Lots of blow back into the action, the MkIII with locking lug is the only one that will not blow wide open with these cases.

The carbine is happy in it's new home. It has a good chamber and can use full brass cases without trouble.

Parts are tricky. I actually bought a pair of carbines, had in mind to use both, but used one for parts and sold a bunch of it's parts as well. I spent $294 with taxes and shipping to me. I made one good carbine, kept a few little bits, and made $241 on parts. That carbine cost me $53!!!!! and it's a pretty good one. It is not an official carbine, it's a cut down sporter, but still that's good value.

you may find something for parts here:

http://pub182.ezboard.com/fbritishmilitariaforumsfrm17

from my other forum

good luck
-Ryan
aka Carignan Salieres

caragnan I think thats extremely clever but you are a braver man than me

somebody has to boldly lead the way.

Those cases have made the difference between an occational firing and the old thing becoming my main rifle.

many many rounds later using those and no real trouble, so it's proven itself.

caragnan Just take care.As you know they put the lock the later models because of the problem with the paper cartridge causing the breech block to fly open.At least be sure to wear safety glasses always.there are always snider rifles and carbines at the gun shows and auctions here most of them dont have the lock and always seem to sell for less presumably because they are not to be fired[although I know one fellow who uses one]We call the earlier ones "The Suicide Models"I would'nt like to see a fellow shooter get hurt.

I checked out your other forum re rear sight ladder It seems I'm second in line the other fellow did'nt appear to get a response.Maybe somebody out there might trade for a front and middle barrel band.

The pre MkIII actions are safe enough with good brass cases. I would not use the paper in my MkII**

hope you find what you need

I've seen your photographs Now I understand your enthusiasm for the round ball.Ive been bumbling along in the dark I did'nt know that such a wealth of knowledge and experience was so freely available I joined your other forum too . I owe you a debt of gratitude.

thanks sir.

You will like it over there.

Hey fellows!
I had been looking around (but not hard) for loading info for my Snider MK III carbine for nearly 12 years. When I finally came into the 20th century and got a computer I found this website:


Http://pub182.ezboard.com/bbritishmilitariaforums


It has alot of archives with painful details about loading Sniders and Martinis. The people on the forum are very helpful and many are very knowlegable.

I see (after I posted) that you already know about the other forum. Oh well, I tried!