A whole battery of questions for anyone with patience. I'm fireforming a 240 Gibbs. After firing some rounds, I find that some cases look just like they belonged on a magizine cover. Then I get a stray few that have a noticably shorter neck and a clear ring around the case ahead of the base. I'm guessing that what is happening is that the secondary shoulder has missed the mark by just enough to let the cartridge move forward with the firing pin force, then making the case over stretch when the pressure goes up. Still guessing here, but I think that what I would have is a thin case ahead of the web, and a thick shoulder area. Any words of wisdom here??
I also have a question about cleaning the bore. Is it possible to over clean a bore to where you rub/ etch metal away from too much exposure to the various cleaning agents used? I am still in cleaning after every shot, as this is an expensive new barrel, but after all blue/green fouling and the obvious first swab through black ,I find that if I wait and come back later after running a dry patch through then a light oiling to park it overnight, it will show a light dusty black on a new patch again. These are just tight patches, not wire brushing. Thanks for any advice.

I'll try to help you as I have a 6.5 Gibbs. I'm not sure how you are prepping your fire forming loads, but this is what I do. Bump the oversize neck back to form a second shoulder that is a "crush" fit in your chamber. Load the case and seat the bullet so it jams in the rifling. This will insure that the base of the cartridge is held against the bolt face. Spray Kroil or WD40 on a rag and roll the cartridges across it just as is done when rolling brass across a lube pad prior to resizing. Make sure the brass is just coated and not dripping wet. Fire the brass as normal.

It's not unusual to lose a few cases since the Gibbs cartridges max the dimension of '06 brass. Of the brass you have already formed, check the wall thickness with a case gauge. If you don't have a case gauge or have any doubt's about the brass - don't use it!.

Cleaning in itself won't damage the bore. However, improper fit of the bore guide can cause the cleaning rod to rub and wear the throat and rifling. Only your barrel can tell you how much it needs to be cleaned. Once you have done your barrel break in and load development, determine how many shots you can take before accuracy goes bad. With a good barrel, you should be able to get 20 - 40 rounds off before fouling gets too bad.

I hope I helped you with some of your questions. Good luck!
John

Jp has it covered.

Wondered how the fire forming project was coming along.

Not clear what brass you are using, but starting with new unfired brass would be best. It's about the only way to get consistant results, and being new, it's more likely to take the "abuse" of fire forming in stride.

Do need a tight fit between that secondary shoulder and the bolt face...tighter than you'd normally ever use in "real" ammuntion. Try each case before you fire form...if it's not tight, set it aside and do not bother to fire form it. Can try later with the bullet-fammed-in-the-lands method if you desire, or neck it back up and take another crack at the secondary shoulder.

If using the inert filler method of fire forming, then there is a "trick" that can help. Wax the cases (past wax, let dry). Will increase the bolt thrust as the case won't grip the chamber walls and cause that sepertion ring. Pressure is pressure, the action doesn't know if there is a bullet or grits in the case, so this is not for high intensity loadings...just enough to get that shoulder formed right.

This forum is really great for us idiots that shouldn't be trying what we will anyway. I've never even heard of forming with a 'grit method' . Just for a little history, I first neck down with a 25-06 , which if done to just the right depth , forces up a small shoulder behind the neck. Then I run it into the 240 gibbs sizer to get the neck down to size. I never even thought of a light lube on the outside of the case to help the brass flow better. [not smart enough to look back first] I think you mentioned the possibility of expanding the neck up first to provide the start of a good secondary shoulder , then working neck back down. Would this work even better if I added in another step or so with the 270 or 280 ? This is all new brass. I didn't want to have to fight work hardened cases or have to anneal before even starting. Thanks for everyone 'walking ' me through some of this.

forgot.... as far as cleaning goes, I am using a newer Tipton rod that is made of carbon/ kevlar or such. Supposed to be no ruboff of any kind on bore. I'm going to a lot of trouble to make sure there is no copper in barrell between shots , since it is brand new.

forgot.... as far as cleaning goes, I am using a newer Tipton rod that is made of carbon/ kevlar or such. Supposed to be no ruboff of any kind on bore. I'm going to a lot of trouble to make sure there is no copper in barrell between shots , since it is brand new.

Might help to have a bigger secondary shoulder, but try backing off that Gibs sizing die a little bit at a time until you have firm resistance when closing the bolt on the case. I mean "firm" as in a solid fit. Would be agood time to pull the bolt and grease the locking lugs.

The "grits method" is just using an inert filler. For your use, I'll list the steps...but only AFTER YOU GET THAT CRUSH FIT ON THE SECONDARY SHOULDER!

START WITH ONE TRIAL CASE:
1. Prime case...good place to use up stray, old, or out of date primers.
2. Charge case with (for this job) 10 to 12gr. of fast pistol powder...Bullseye, RedDot, 700X, AA#2, or 231...somthing in that burning range).
3. FILL THE CASE with inert fill...Grits becasue i live in teh south and I have it on hand...cream-0f-wheat if that's what you have...or go to the store and buy some. DO NOT USE FINE GRAINED FILLLER!!
4. Compress the filler material...just use a pencil or a small wooden down and pack it down.
5. Fill the space created by step #4
6. Plug the case mouth with bullet lube. If you don't have any lube, then plug it with wax (even candle wax)...if you don't have any candles, plug it with soap. The plug just keeps the compression and makes the loads easier to handle.
7. point in a safe direction and fire...it will be as loud as a real rifle shot...the high pressure gas and material will tear a big hole in anything the muzzle gets close to.
8. Out should eject a nice looking case. If not fully formed, then go back to step #2 and increase the charge.
9. Once you get the right charge weight to make a good case, go back and load all fot eh cases for fireforming. Can't be more exact than this as case hardness varies from brand to brand.

"Waxing" the case between step #6 and #7 can help (Johnson's Paste floor wax...car wax...got old "pledge"). PRessure is high enough to form the cases, but not nearly as high as with a bulleted load (and grits are alot less expensive than bullets).

Ribbonstone gave you the best way I think Gibbs cases should be formed. The Gibbs case expands the maximum amount an '06 case can be and uses a very short neck length. When fireforming, Gibbs cases lose some length as the shoulder blows out. This length is lost in the neck, thereby reducing the overall neck length to less than the already short .25". Using this "grits" method allows you to use a longer than typical case for fireforming so that the finished case is nearer to the chambers overall length. The 270 and 280 cases are slightly longer than a typical '06 case and make great candidates for the Gibbs line. DO NOT USE THE LONGER CASES WHEN FIREFORMING WITH A BULLET !!!

Enjoy! John

Thanks John. I'm pondering the technical reasons why you would say not to use a longer case to fireform with a bullet, however. If memory is correct the 280 is the longest main body which would be the slosest to final fit. Is it harder to get a good secondary shoulder because of the lack of neck to push back?? And speaking of neck length, is there really a problem with a shorter neck ,,other than reduced tension to hold a bullet in place? This is all pretty much single shot shooting even with a bolt gun with a magazine. I really aprreciate all this input. Thanks again.

Thanks John. I'm pondering the technical reasons why you would say not to use a longer case to fireform with a bullet, however. If memory is correct the 280 is the longest main body which would be the slosest to final fit. Is it harder to get a good secondary shoulder because of the lack of neck to push back?? And speaking of neck length, is there really a problem with a shorter neck ,,other than reduced tension to hold a bullet in place? This is all pretty much single shot shooting even with a bolt gun with a magazine. I really aprreciate all this input. Thanks again.

Shouldn't be any trouble using 280 brass...would be less distance the shoulder has to be blown forward and proably end up with a little longer OAL once it is fire formed (starts out at 2.54" rather than the 30-06's 2.494"). Won't be a problem with the "grits forming" method, and once formed can trim back to your choosen length.

Constant use of too short brass does roughen the small section of chamber neck not covered by the brass...depending on how the chamber ends (some have a taper, some are a right angle stop) it shouldn't cause any other problems. IF you go back to full length brass after using short necked cases long enough, will see a slight ring of roughness on the longer case neck's mouth.

When fireforming using the longer cases, the neck is actually forced into the throat section of the rifles chamber. This will squeeze the neck in. If a bullet is seated, the case neck wil;l be crimped into the bullet with no room to expand and release the bullet on firing. The pressures will be high and throat damage is possible.

As per neck length issues, I think it depends on how you use the rifle and transport the loaded cartridges. My 6.5 Gibbs brass is all about .020 (I don't remember exactly how much off hand) short and doesn't seem to grow. My bullets are held firmly and no problems have risen. However, bullets being pushed up the loading ramp from the magazine may get tipped out of concentricity with the case. The same is true if cartridges are carried in pockets or losely.

280 brass is probably the closest fit of the commercial brass, but I haven't found any real quality 280 brass to use. I used a good batch of Winchester 270 brass to make my Gibbs brass the last time. I anneal the necks and cases seem to last forever. If ever have to make up more cases, I'll probably use Lapua 30-06 brass.

Enjoy! John

.

280 brass is probably the closest fit of the commercial brass, but I haven't found any real quality 280 brass to use. I used a good batch of Winchester 270 brass to make my Gibbs brass the last time. I anneal the necks and cases seem to last forever. If ever have to make up more cases, I'll probably use Lapua 30-06 brass.

Enjoy! John


For my .30 Gibbs,I start with new Remington .35 Whelen brass. I'd use Winchester but they don't offer that caliber.
After sizing and fireforming,the neck wall is too thick so I turn them down before using full-power loads.

May well be right about the 280 today...didn't notice any trouble with the cases "back when". Got hard headed with a Ruger 77V in .280 and used it fore everything that wasn't flying for a couple of years.

Think ombesb is trying to minimailze the neck thickenss with his 6mm Gibbs; the .35 W. case would sure give him a solid shoulder...but if the 280 case is suspect for quaility, is the 35W any better?

For my .30 Gibbs,I start with new Remington .35 Whelen brass. I'd use Winchester but they don't offer that caliber.
After sizing and fireforming,the neck wall is too thick so I turn them down before using full-power loads.

ManyPlews why have you started with 35 whelen brass? I am just curious, I also have a 30 Gibbs. I use winchester 06 brass and reload light loads with 100gr bullets and fireform then load up and have had no problem with brass at all.

I don't know if you guys are interested, but there are a few companies making cylinder brass on the '06 size casehead at '06 lengths. If you full size in your dies, all that is left is fireforming to crisp up the shoulder.

Who makes that brass?

Thanks John . Got you on the longer case and bullet. That could be a real problem with a determined bullet trying to get out. And yes, RS, I have been keeping an eye on neck thickness. So far, using a tubing mike, I have only found .0005 increase in neck wall thickness. Trying to shove all the 35Whelen brass around might be a different story. Looked at some 280 brass today, but it was nickel plated. I don't want another factor in there to contend with. Going to go grocery shopping tomorrow for some cream- of-wheat, if it doesn't taste good , I'll just shoot it.

I understand that there are people who actually eat it...I could manage it if you stayed behind me with a loaded gun pointed my way.

Haven't played with the .280 for a lot of years, and perhaps the lack of demand has made the quaility of the brass suspect...would have though the 30-06 family would have all started from the same base, but the final forming dies for the unpopular calibers probably get kept on line a bit longer than the ones for the popular ones.

With all the work of fire-froming, would be best to start with the highest quality cases possible. Would by-pass the nickled cases...if you neck turn them, the "racing stripe" just looks stupid and I've never gotten the case life out of plated brass I get with plain brass. When i asked about that, got a long explination of hydrogen embrittlemnt that I really don't have the chemistry background to follow completely...sounded impressive, but not knowledgeable to check up on the facts.

ManyPlews why have you started with 35 whelen brass? I am just curious, I also have a 30 Gibbs. I use winchester 06 brass and reload light loads with 100gr bullets and fireform then load up and have had no problem with brass at all.

Wapiti,
The gunsmith that rechambered my rifle (Raymond Romain of Brockway,PA.) does a lot work with the Gibbs line and he recommended it.
It saves the step of necking up '06 brass to get a good shoulder.This reduces the amount of cold-working also.
The material needed to extend the body out to the Gibbs shoulder has to come from some place and it probably comes from the case wall just before the shoulder.
I've done some using '06 brass and have noticed the neck shortens slightly also.
The .30 Gibbs finished case made from '06's weighs less than one made from Whelen brass so if you have worked up a max load for the '06 case,you should reduce it if you try Whelen brass.
Ron

What ribbenstone said is pretty much wahat I use to create .375 Whelen AI cases. I use a small wad of toilet paper between the powder and cream of wheat, a soap plug, about 10 gr of unique and a light coat of 3in1 oil on the outside of the case. The shoulder is good after that forming but gets even more well defined after the first full load firing.

Eric

Been off a few days with work type of obligations. Life has no consideration of priorities at all. Fired a few made up with the cream of wheat load...... that's just slicker-n-sliced bread. Cases look very good and very consistent. Thanks one and all. On a little side note, while messing with all this, I found what some others have been having a problem with , being static cling of powder to plastic funnels and such. Tried wiping it down with a cling free sheet and seemed to make no difference at all , at first. But I had just left the sheet lying on the bench and kept placing the funnel back on it between cases. After about 10 rounds no more powder clung to it at all. Worked great the rest of the evening. Maybe luck or maybe something to it.

Wapiti, 30-06 basic cylinder brass is available from Huntington (www.huntingtons.com) and Z-Hat Custom (www.z-hat.com). These two I know, there are probably others.

I read this thread after being frustrated with split cases in my .257 RCBS Improved. My question is that I do not have any pistol type powder. Can I use a fast rifle powder with the cream of wheat, wax plug method? I have IMR4198, H322 and W748. Can one of these be substituted? If so, approximately how much? I tried forming Remington UMC brass with 117 gr SPBT and 46.5 grains of H4831SC. About 5 out of 25 split in the neck, side, shoulder etc. One burned through the primer. Some have rounded shoulders as if they are not fully formed to the chamber. Some of these split and burned through the shoulder. I also noticed a lot of gas leakage rearward past the neck, shoulder, and to about 70% of the case body. I had followed advice read elsewhere and seated the bullets long so as to contact the rifling when chambered. I have not had this bad luck in the past with lighter bullets and Federal brass. Any suggestions? Thanks, Peter.

When all else fails, try this - buy a box of factory 257 Robt's and shoot them. They will fireform to your specific chamber.

If you're getting gas leakage from the neck area, the loads are too low to sufficiently seal the chamber with the expanding case.

To tell the truth, the several wildcats I have get the cases fireformed by using bullets that haven't performed well in the past and the case is pretty well filled with the slowest powder in the powder pantry. Right now, that's AA8700. Right next to it is IMR7828 and some VVN170 and RL25, when the 8700 is used up.

kdub, Initially I used factory loads for the fireform process, but I am out of them and it seems like an expensive way to do it. I am under the impression that the factory loads will not be as accurate as the fireformed handloaded cartridges. I have a fair amount of once fired brass and was intent on using the components that I have. It has not panned out too well. The fireform loads chronographed at about 2800 fps, but were not very consistent ranging from 2700 - 2900. Maybe I should pull the bullets and re-weigh or increase the charges. I thought that 2900 fps was fast enough for a 117gr bullet, but maybe the 2700 fps loads are not. Seems to be quite a bit of inconsistency there. I will weigh the powder coming out and then try my new Quick Measure to weigh the powder going back in. Thanks, Peter.

You'll usually have about a 200 fps loss when shooting factory or first time fireforming cases in the Improved chamber. After fireforming, the loads should be far more consistent that what you measured. Weighing and sorting brass will help, but not be the total answer. Also, be aware that the case length will shorten when going from factory length and fireformed length.

Again, I'd recommend filling the case full of very slow burning powder and seat whatever bullet you want over it and fireform away.

I pulled the bullets out of my remaining fireform loads. I weighed the charges of H4831SC that I had dispensed. Despite my attempts at being meticulous they were not at all very consistent. None were at the 46.5 weight that I had initially wanted and measured. The range was from 45.5 - 46.2. This could explain the variation in velocity. Since the time that I loaded these rounds I switched powder measures and now use a Quick Measure. After setting the Quick Measure and weighing many dispensed loads, I charged all the cases with the desired 46.5 grains. I then double checked some of these charges and found the to be within less than .2 of a grain. I will bring these to the range and try again and in the future try some of the other methods suggested. I find it interesting and frustrating that most all of the difficulties in my limited experience with handloads has been the inconsistency in powder charges especially with extruded powders. For someone who is starting out I would strongly suggest purchasing a really good measure such as the Quick Measure or an RCBS digital. Thanks, Peter.

ManyPlews why have you started with 35 whelen brass? I am just curious, I also have a 30 Gibbs. I use winchester 06 brass and reload light loads with 100gr bullets and fireform then load up and have had no problem with brass at all.
ManyPlewsIshoot a 30 gibbs,and I follow basicaly the same steps as Ribbonstone. It just seems like you are going to a lot of extra work starting with 35 whelan brass ,

For the guys chasing good 280 brass for fireforming into the Gibbs line, why not try the new Nosler 280 AI brass, it might be OK.
David C