Through my limited research of Sub MOA rifle shooting I have learned that the larger calibers can not shoot as accurate as the smaller calibers. I will be attending a school on rifle accuracy in the summer of 2004. Can any one tell me what size group a hunting rifle in .270 cal. - .300 win. mag. would be considered really out standing, that a hunter would pay good money for. I have been told under 1" group at 100 yrds. is great, but a new co-worker sends his new Sako 7mm rifles off to be worked on for maxium accuracy potential and when he gets them back they shoot 1/2" groups (5 shots) at 200 yrds. Can one send his 30-06 to a gunsmith and it come back to him shooting 1/4" groups or less at a 100 yrds! :confused:
(ADD ON TO THREAD):Thanks for all the feedback! As for as a hunting rifle for big game what is concidered a good sub-moa grouping rifle and a rifle that shoots amazing groups? I'm refering to a 7 1/2 LB.
down to the 5 LB. light weights.The rifle might need a custom trigger, barrel work, lapped lugs and a cartridge load that brings out the best performance of the rifle.

It all depends on how much you want to spend. Yes you could send your 30-06 to a gunsmith and have come back shooting 1/4" groups at 100 yards, but depending on what you started with, there may not be much left of the original rifle by the time you get it back! It will also probably require tailored handloads.

They might change the barrel, stock, trigger, firing pin, and at least "blueprint" the action.

I am very happy with 1/2" groups at 100 yards with my Winchester mod. 70 30-06. Thats on a good day(mine).

The average for ALL 5-shot groups shot "for the record"
since November 2000 is .800". Thats with FEDERAL match ammo.

Some cartriges seem more inherently acurate than others. The .308 comes to mind. But it is not necesarely related to size of caliber.

You determine your needs, and you pay your money!

Do more research!

Undeerstand what you are saying...that the 100yard groups seem to favor the small bores, and that does seem to have some baisis in fact when comparing re-wroked factroy rifles. Could be several reasons, not the least of which the abundance of pure-match bulletes available...the recoil factor on both the shooter and the vibrational pattern of the rifle...and simply pure mass (given the same OD, a .22 or 6mm bore has a lot more mass than the same OD rifled to a larger bore).

Set the targets out to long range, and see which ones shoot the smaller groups...the little ones or the big ones. Havne't done very much long-long range shooting, but it does seem the people who take it seriously don't use the tiny bores.

The primary reason large caliber rifles don't seem to shoot as accurately as small caliber ones is due to the anticipated recoil of the firearm by the shooter. There are those people that apparently aren't bothered too much by recoil and can shoot some outstanding groups with the heavier calibers. I'm not one of them, unfortunately.

If you're really striving for tiny groups then the answer is a heavy benchrest rifle that absorbs the recoil and has all sorts of gizmos to define accuracy to the inth degree. Yup, these heavy pieces of iron and wood/synthetic costs lots of dough, but they are made strictly for precision shooting and not hunting.

For any given hunting rifle, MOA is more than adequate - the holy grail of the tinest sub-MOA is a great conversation piece and point of pride, I suppose, but realistically, will costs lots of money to achieve when the MOA shooter will get the job done just as well.

I managed to get Varmint special .243 Winchester from the factorl that shoots 3 shots into .250" allthe time. It shoots 5 shots into .375-.500" at 100 yards. I didn't do anything special, it does this with factory ammo. Riflrs are getting better every year, the manufacturing is more precise. At the 1000 Yd matches, shooters prefer 7MM and up, because of the increased ballistic coefficient. I have never fired at 100 yards. Some people are shooting the .338 Lapua at 1500 yards, and making 8-9 inch groups. Supposedly a company has fired the .408 Cheytac cartridge at ranges up to 3000 yards and maintained MOA accuracy. At extreme range the scope runs out of adjustment to compensate for elevation. Allof this is extreme, and costs big money. I would get a rifle built on the best action I could afford, and put a good unstraightened barrel on it, with a minimum dimension chamber. And wear a recoil pad, to eliminate flinching. If it hurts you, you can't shoot it well. Good luck Greg

With any given rifle you need to define what you want. The first thing for all accuracy is to practice good shooting technique as often as possible. I would recommend reloading for each individual rifle using all the benchrest techniques. Mechanical enhancements of the rifle are effective, but a good rifle in decent shape can be very accurate with the proper ammo and a dedicated shooter. The least expensive approach is to learn your rifle well.

Today I shot a personal best with a Rem 700 308 that is nearly factory stock. Fired 3 shots out of a cold barrel into .837" at 300 yards. It is a BDL Varmint 308 that I fitted with a Remington synthetic stock bought used at a gunshow, 16 power Weaver scope ( not the most expensive optics ), and a Timney trigger. The rounds are necksized only, AA2520 powder and Sierra 168 gr match bullets. The previous best was 3 into .999".

This isn't going to be popular...but when has that stopped me in the past?

Some rifles have no set limits...I'll fiddle with them, try new loads, and fine tune them for years looking for that last 1/10" of group. Great fun in itself, even if I burn out the barrel over the years without ever really shooting anything but paper.

Other rifles I know ahead of time I'm going to hunt with. Can pretty well predict the useful range of some rifles, and from taht , work backwrds to the minimum accuracy requied.

Lets take a HUNTING .22Hornet aas an example. Not much is going to be happening with a .22horent past 175-200 yards. Bullet expanison is undependable once it's fallen to a certain velocity...can test tht with expansion media set out at distances. I'd want 2" accuracy at that max. range. Testing AT THAT RANGE (in this case, 175 yards), when I finally find a load and/or tune the rifle to give me that accuracy, will usually STOP load development...go out and shoot critters and be happy. Perhaps there is a load twice as accurate...who cares? the bullets don't expand past that range, and I'v eno real need for poking a .224" hole thought a critter to watch him wander off.

Have hunting .22LR's and benchrest .22LR's...the hunters go out hunting once I've found ammo that will group under 1" at 75yards. Test them at 75yards, find the load that works, buy all the ammo of that lot number you can find, and go hunting. May be some untested ammo that gets 3/4" groups...don't care, won't pull the trigger on game past 75 yards due to the bullet's effects.

Sitting right next to those, are other rifles that I may never stop hunting up small improvments in accuacy...and they may never see game...they don't NEED to, becasue the other rifles have taken that job.

Just an (unpopular) opinion.

Check out the groups that the .50 BMG shooters are getting at 1,000 yards.... under MOA..... then make a general statement that the small bores are more accurate than the big bores :)

It all depends on how you define 'accuracy' including range, conditions, how much shooter ability plays in that, etc.

that 50bmg bullet at 750gr flies a flat line for longer than i can see now,where as the 22cal bullet drops off in a much shorter distance,but for the bigger cal. that bullet weight helps with wind,planet rotation and gravity effects, for anything that moves there are forces that interupt point a to point b travel.now i know some shooters who know everything that they need to shoot sub moa and same hole shots at200 yards,and 1 or 2 even further than i can see with a scope,most of them dress in green and i am very happy there where they are.But that big bullet dos'ent meen that i am going to shoot a 577 t-rex in a match.work up a load to the gun for as good as it and you can shoot with what you can afford,keep a record of what was done and think of what you want to do later on,there is allot that you can do yourself with pillar bedding and barrel chanel bedding.the more work you do on the gun is time and money that can be used somewhere else like on the action and trigger.ok finger cramp now,bye.

Dear Ribbonstone ,

Your post was far too rational to ever be "popular" what in the world were you thinking my good man?

444fitch

Sorry...just slipped out...will control the outburst.

The persuit of a more accurate gun or load is a sport in itself. As time goes by and the oportunity to hunt decreases, it occupies more and more of our range time...it's quantitative, easy to measure and discuss, and gives the reward of progress being made.

And I still play at it...having a great time getting averages that are a few fractions of an inch better.

Three years ago, kept all the scope sighted rifles in the safe, and when hunting only with iron sighted rifles...muzzle loaders, lever guns, single shots. Had a great time hunting...even though I know the rifles can't break 1MOA in my hands (and some barely break 3MOA).

I'll proably stop as my eyesight gets worse, and return to the scope signed rifles...and may even decide that working out that last 1/10" of group is important to hunting...but the question still come up:

Just how much farther will a 1MOA 38/40 rifle kill a deer in comparison to a 2MOA 38/40 rifle?

Through my limited research of Sub MOA rifle shooting I have learned that the larger calibers can not shoot as accurate as the smaller calibers. I will be attending a school on rifle accuracy in the summer of 2004. Can any one tell me what size group a hunting rifle in .270 cal. - .300 win. mag. would be considered really out standing, that a hunter would pay good money for. I have been told under 1" group at 100 yrds. is great, but a new co-worker sends his new Sako 7mm rifles off to be worked on for maxium accuracy potential and when he gets them back they shoot 1/2" groups (5 shots) at 200 yrds. Can one send his 30-06 to a gunsmith and it come back to him shooting 1/4" groups or less at a 100 yrds! :confused:

mountainfire,

Get your self 2 different rifles - One to take hunting and a heavy benchrest rifle. Suggest look at a CZ model 550 as an acurate hunting rifle. Suggest take a look on Remington's web site - their custom shop model 40 as a target rifle. Heck, you could get them both in .308 Win!!!

Dear ribbonstone,

Seems our thoughts on accuracy parallel. Dead is dead whether its from a .5" MOA on bags or 2" MOA hunting rifle. And the kicker is you don't have to lug all that equipment around.

Had a friend who spent a truck load of cash for 6mm Arnold custom rifle. Fun to shoot at 400 yards and beyond but needed a pickup to carry the equipment needed to shot this heavy monster. The muzzle blast from it scared everything down there holes out to 400 yards. Not much profit in this when you shooting varmits.

If you follow the same logic (that a round's accuracy should be linked to the range it is intendedto be used), then it IS worth experimenting for ultimate accuracy for some rifles.

Build a heavy barrel "hot shot" (take your pick of rounds) that you intend to plink varmints at 500ayrds with. If you figure a 3" kill zone...you'd need one that could hold 6/10MOA all the way out to 500yards to get the full use of that rifle. .6MOA at 100 is not the same as shooting .6MOA at 500, the groups don't grow proportionaly.

There is a flaw in many varminter's practice...if you want a good performing load at 300 yards, you'd better accuracy test at 300yards.

Opposit is also true...accept a 1.5MOA .220Swift, and you're never going to get the range the Swift is good for.

So, are two basic wastes of hunting time: running out of power before you run out of accuracy (which would be the case with a 1/2MOA .22hornet) and running out accuracy before you run out of power (the case of a 1.5MOA .220 Swift).


Paper shooting nis a whole 'nutter critter....the only power requirment is to punch a hole in a sheet of paper, so the only thing that really counts is accuracy.