Dude...

My wife's Grandfather was a deputy sheriff in King County, WA and I have his 1930 Colt "Official Police DA Revolver.

I have about 50 rounds of ammo for it and about 100 cases but haven't shot is because I can't find dies for it. I talked to Lee about making a set but the designer said they can't with their equipment because of the "footed" bullet that it designed to shoot.

Can you explain that to me? Did you get load data with the kit? Oh man...

Dude...

My wife's Grandfather was a deputy sheriff in King County, WA and I have his 1930 Colt "Official Police DA Revolver.

I have about 50 rounds of ammo for it and about 100 cases but haven't shot is because I can't find dies for it. I talked to Lee about making a set but the designer said they can't with their equipment because of the "footed" bullet that it designed to shoot.

Can you explain that to me? Did you get load data with the kit? Oh man...

The original .41LC (and SC) were heeled bullets...the outside diameter of the bullet is the same as the case, it has what looks like a long gas check base (the heel) that fits inside the case. .22LR's are about the only heeled ammo left in common production.

Later on they loaded inside seated bullets. These had to be well below bore diameter for all the exisiting revolvers, so they used a soft lead bullet with a deep hollow base. One of these bullets will drop straight through a .41 bore, but under the "thump" of expanding gas would expand and grab rifling.

No reason a .41LC Lee loader wouldn't work like any other Lee loader with the inside seated HB version. For that matter, other than applying a crimp, no reason it couldn't work with the heeled version if it were made for it (and the only way to get a good crimp on a heeled bullet is to have Lee make a specail crimp die).

Starline is making .41LC cases again, there are molds (both heeled and hollow based). Another poster on Sixguns and I have been playing with the .41LC for a couple of years. He's taken the inside HB bullet 1/2 of things, I've taken the heeled bullet 1/2.

Lee made special mold that combines the two, a full diamter bullet with a heel, and a hollow base in that heel...don't know if they feel like making more or not, or how HarryO (that other poster) got them to make them in the first place.

Given the limited strength of the old guns in .41LC, smokeless powder has a hard time bumping up the bullets...BP has so far been the better solution. Can get decent accuracy with fast smokleless, but it's a race between excess pressure and obturation.

So, for the 41LC, can get the brass from Starline...are more molds now than there were just 5 years ago, and the dies are still made.

Can check out Sixgunner's site...belive Harry's last update is still avaialbe in archives.

BTW: that Officail Police is kind of rare in .41LC. the model before that, the Army Specail, is idential to the Officail police...they just changed the neame and a few small details. Believe the .41LC was only chambered in the first few years, and then only with leftover blanks and cylinders from the old Army Specail.

Thanks a lot Ribbonstone... I see that's your 1000th post! I wrote footed, but you are correct... healed... I knew it had something to do with a foot! The picture I took of the gun is really poor as the flash didn't go off. I took this pistol by a shop that just works with handguns and he was pretty impressed as this caliber was just available from 1930 to 1932.

I would like to shoot the pistol and I'm going to follow up on some of the info you've given me. I will watch for a Lee Loader in this calbier... I never knew the man but in that the family thought enough about me to give me his weapon, badge, handcuffs, service holster, etc. I would like to put this stuff in a display box. Of course, I always feel the best tribute might be to shoot the pistol and shoot it well.

Thanks mucho!

Started loading the .41LC when there wasn't any brass...figured out a few ways to make cases with the help of a lathe.

Starline isn't inexpensive brass, but it's dirt cheap compared to the lathed conversion brass. Will have to check, but at first the only way Star line was selling it was by larger amounts...perhaps by not they've seen clear to sell smaller amounts.

This is one case where soft bullets (soft alloy) is the ONLY way to go. Heeled bullets need the heel to at least bump up to the land-to-land diameter to get any real accuracy...the hollow base need to bump up to groove-to-groove diameter. Can't do that with anything but the softest alloy you can find at the pressure limits of the .41LC.

Is one of the calibers where it is a fight to equal the perfomance and accuracy of black powder loads.

Your revolver is as modern as the .41LC ever got...it's the last model ever chambered in the round by Colt. It might take a bit more pressure than the others, but it really isn't worth it to find out (the forcing cone is the thin spot...take a look, there isn't a lot of beef arround the end of that barrel).
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Older books give some praise for the .41LC as a man stopper. Keith liked it well enough, bu recognized that there was no hot-rodding the old round. A 200gr. .403" bullet drifting along at 770-810fps isn't any great shakes by today's standards, but before expadning bullets and magnums, it was respectable.

The Colt 1977 "Thunderer" was popular mostly dure to it's small size...the .41LC sould just barely fit into the cylinder (which explains the dinky rims).
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1000 posts...I must have WAY too much time on my hands.

ranchdog,

Ribbonstone has already given yousome quite good information. The advice to search out HarryO's posts on sixgunner are also good. I have had several conversations both in person and by E-mail with him. He has done a lot of work with the .41 Long Colt.

The hollow-based bullet route is the best and easiest to take with this cartridge. It is at least as accurate as the heel bullets, and a lot easier to load.

Now, for the bad news. I have no idea who identified this gun for you, but they are wrong on nearly every point. The revolver you show is not an Official Police, but rather a New Army (or New Navy). These guns were the predecessors to the Army Special and Official Police. The identifying point is the sideplate on the right side of the frame. The cylinder rotates to the left, like a Smith & Wesson, instead of to the right like all other double action Colts. The lockwork of the New Army/Navy is far inferior to the subsequent models and is the reason they were discontinued.

The New Army/Navy were built from 1892-1907 when the Army Special was introduced. The .41 LC was available from the beginning and continued through all three models into the early 1930's. All three models were produced under one consecutive serial number range beginning with #1 in 1892. Just to help you with an approximate date I'll give you some of the beginning serial numbers by year for this particular model.

1892 1
1895 15100
1897 77000
1899 115000
1901 148000
1903 193000
1905 241000
1907 272000 end ca. 291000

The Army Special started in 1907 @ 291000

I do have, and shoot, a New Army built in 1899. At close range (15 yds.) it is reasonably accurate, but it deteriorates quickly at longer distances. This is mostly because the timing is way off, and appears to have been so since it was built. Interestingly, I also have an Army Special which was originally .32-20. I had it re-bored and line bored the cylinder which should have helped accuracy. The converted gun doesn't shoot one bit better than the old one which really spits lead. It was an interesting project, and done only because I havn't been able to fing a .41 Army Special or Official Police after many years of searching. I did see one at a gun show, went a couple of aisles farther and decided to go back for it, you know how well that works!!!

Ribbonstone would be right about this being as modern as a Colt .41 LC Double Action got, provided it had been an Official Police, which it unfortunately isn't.

Hope this has been of some help and interest to you.

SHUCKS...missed the picture link...that for sure is NOT an Officail Police. That one is an OLD one...and the chances of it still being in time (the cylinder lining up with the barrel as you cock it) are slim. The lockwork is not like any modern Colt, and it's not very good...gets out of adjustment and wears rapidly.

Even rotates the "wrong" way...rotates counter clockwise like a S&W (all modern Colts rotate clockwise).

THANKS ALK8994...I totally missed the picture.

Now, for the bad news...The identifying point is the sideplate on the right side of the frame. The cylinder rotates to the left, like a Smith & Wesson, instead of to the right like all other double action Colts...

The New Army/Navy were built from 1892-1907 when the Army Special was introduced. The .41 LC was available from the beginning and continued through all three models into the early 1930's. All three models were produced under one consecutive serial number range beginning with #1 in 1892. Just to help you with an approximate date I'll give you some of the beginning serial numbers by year for this particular model.

1892 1
1895 15100

Hope this has been of some help and interest to you.

Hey fellows...
This has been a great help! I see the sideplate on the right side and the cylinder does rotate counter-clockwise, to the left. The serial number is 8XX and it is stamped with that number at 3 points on the frame. The barrel, measures 4 1/2", is marked "COLT D A 41" on the left side and "COLT'S PT F A MFG CO. PAT A116.5.84.NOV.6.88MAR.5.95" on the top. It has the hard rubber grips.

I've attached a little better picture.

Great info guys!

Hey fellows...
This has been a great help! I see the sideplate on the right side and the cylinder does rotate counter-clockwise, to the left. The serial number is 8XX and it is stamped with that number at 3 points on the frame. The barrel, measures 4 1/2", is marked "COLT D A 41" on the left side and "COLT'S PT F A MFG CO. PAT A116.5.84.NOV.6.88MAR.5.95" on the top. It has the hard rubber grips.

I've attached a little better picture.

Great info guys!

Can tell by the picture, the 3 digit number on the thumb latch, the crane, and the frame facing the crane is an assembly number, it is NOT the serial number. THE Serial number will be on the butt, at the forward edge. That gun is a Model 1892 "New Army & Navy"(2nd issue). The first issue(1889) had an even worse lock work system and shows no notches on the cylinder...yours (and mine...have one as well) shows two notches per chamber on the cylinder.

The locking system was in evolution...the next gun up (the Army Special) used lockwork was the same design as used in modern Colts. The one we are stuck with goes get out of time easily (maybe not fair...they are all old and well used, so ther were pretty well worn by the time we got our mitts on them).

First check...and if it doesn't pass this one, no real need to go on...check the forcing cone (the very tail end of the barrel that sticks through the frame) for cracks. You can see how thin the edge of steel is....if the gun is out of time, the bullet will enter the forcing cone off center, and in doing so will slam into one side or the other of the forcing cone. IF it's cracked, best to clean it up and hang it on the wall (perhaps with a note placed in one cylinder warning of what you've found).

BTW: the grips are clean/crisp/and seem uncracked...rare..and it is a good sign that the gun may not have had a ahrd life, so it may be in time and worth testing farther.

If you have an old set of feeler gauges (flat sheets of .002-.012" steel that use to be used for setting the gap in the old ignitions sytems of cars):

Check the revolver by slowly (EMPTY!!!) cocking the gun on each cylinder. Reach forward once at full cock and see if the cylinder has locked in place and how much rotational slack is in the sytem. Lower the hammer gently and keep your trigger finger pulling back on the trigger (as if you've fired a shot)...then check for cylinder locking and rotational slack with the ahmmer down and trigger held back. IT will have less roational slack. Do this for each of the 6 chambers.

Empty, hammer down, finger off trigger (we'll just call this "at rest"). Check for forward/backwards play in the cylinder...usually called end shake. Will be a little bit, but not a lot. Hold it up to a strong light and take a look at the gap between barrel and cylinder...and do the fore-aft "end shake" test again. Does the barrel actually touch the cylinder when the cylinder is pressed foreward? Does the gap grow to a large size when the cylinder is pulled backwards? Would be best if the forward limit still left .002-.004" of gap and the rearward gap was less than .010"..this is a generous allowance, not one I'd use to measure a modern gun.

With the revolver "at rest", look to the front of the crane (the part that swings out and has the cylinder system attached to it) and push the cylinder to the left...as if you wanted to swing it open, but don't activate the thumb latch. How far does the crane move? A tiny bit is acceptable on a gun of this age...but not a lot of movement (for this we'll call .008" "a lot").

Are other checks...and if you've gone this far, we'll get to them.

Idea here is that no gunsmith i know will recommend firing these old guns (liability problems), and I certainly won't recommend it...but I can tell you what to check, and you can make the decision for yourself.

RibbonStone...

I checked the forcing cone and I can't see any wear in the metal. I over looked the SN, it's 120XXX. I really appreciate all the help as I'm not a revolver guy. I guess I'm going to learn about them though. I will be back with more questions I'm sure but this gives me some stuff to check out.

The preliminary visual checks show the gun is extremely tight but I do have feeler gauges out at the airport so will check this out. At lunch, one of the old shooters I hang with told me he had several hundred rounds of new ammo for this pistol in his safe. I do all his reloading and never ask a dime for even the components so he's going to pass that stuff on to me.

RibbonStone...

I checked the forcing cone and I can't see any wear in the metal. I over looked the SN, it's 120XXX. I really appreciate all the help as I'm not a revolver guy. I guess I'm going to learn about them though. I will be back with more questions I'm sure but this gives me some stuff to check out.

The preliminary visual checks show the gun is extremely tight but I do have feeler gauges out at the airport so will check this out. At lunch, one of the old shooters I hang with told me he had several hundred rounds of new ammo for this pistol in his safe. I do all his reloading and never ask a dime for even the components so he's going to pass that stuff on to me.

Ranch Dog:

That ammo is hard to find...been ut of production for a good long time. Think you're going to owe that guy a major favor. Not too far off from mine (#131XXX).

Take care of the old girl, there just aren't any parts if you break one, and no one left that knows much about fixing them. That yours seems to be tight is a good sign...from the condition of the grips, would assume it got well cared for (intact grips, without the checkering worn down over time, isn't common).

Post about the ammo...type of box, coloer, brand, etc. will give an idea of the age of the ammo.

RD,

Both our 1892's are identical. My SN is mid 118000 so we are about 2000 apart in the same year of manufacture, 1899.

I spoke with my mother-in-law last night and she has a pretty good grip on her family's history. Her father bought the pistol second hand during the depression... unbelievable for the shape it is in! It hung on a peg in the hostler as he prefered to address calls with is club. The box of ammo is busted as he did need the weapon rather quickly and it was stored unloaded. The box hit the floor and busted open, he got what ammo he needed and her mother policed the rest up. I've removed the ammo from the box because of the wear on the box.

The ammo is head stamped U.S.C Co. 41 L.D.A. There is a story behind the ammo that is being brought to me but I will save it until that ammo arrives.

Can we move the replies of this topic concerning the 41 LC to the handgun family? I don't want to lose this info and someone else might need it or like to read it.

Thanks so much for the info fellows.

Michael

This was the first time I've split a thread, and it looks like I got it done without loosing anything. :o

A well known gun collector tried to sell me a Colt SAA in .41 Long Colt about 40 years ago. It probably would have been a good investment, but you couldn't find ammo or components then. Besides, that dude could leave a used car salesman standing there without his pants, and I was scared of dealing with him.

Bye
Jack

Notice a few things about the ammo (which by the way looks to be in good shape). The short OAL comes from the need to fit inside the old Colt 1977 "thunderer" and it's short cylinder. The bullet on those is the inside seated HBRN bullet...it will run something like .388"-.390" where as the bore of your revovler will be .403-405". If you had one loose, it would fall sraight through. Keith and others praised the very blunt point of those bullets as "manstoppers"...in comparison to the pointed .38's of the time, they were.

Also notice that you can put a loaded round in through the FRONT of the cylinder...the cylinder's "chamber" is just a straight (very slightly tapered) hole. This is left over from the heeled design...most .22LR revovlers are made the same way.

Doesn't do a lot for accuracy, but sure makes it easy to clean.

If you haven't checked it out, at sixgunners.com, can hunt up Harry-O's short article by enetering "41 long colt" into the search feature.

Do remember that Harry cracked the forcing cone of his original 1892 in his early experiments, and up-graded to a new (better condition) 1892. Haven't talked to him for a long while, and don't know if he ever rebarrled the first one or has stripped it for the parts sure to be needed eventually for the second.

I had to go off to work, darn, but will mess around with this pistol some next week; measurements, etc.

One question though; why the cannelure ring around mid-case?

I had to go off to work, darn, but will mess around with this pistol some next week; measurements, etc.

One question though; why the cannelure ring around mid-case?

Believe it or not, that's about where the base of that hollow based bullet sits.

Why they wanted to cannelure the base, as if it were going to have to resist forces pushing it back into the case, I don't know. Revolvers act like inertia bullet pullers on the rounds in the cylinder...the force on the bullet is forward, not backwards. But you'll find the same type of ring in some .38specail loads.

Does promote uneven case growth...kick-backs from case trimmer manufactures? (Why did old-time dentist give a kid a lolly-pop?).

Ribbonstone

I got my measuring sticks together and this is what I came up with on the 41 LC.

Rotational slack when cocked is .036". Slack with the hammer lowered and trigger pressure held is exactly half of the previous measurement....018". It is equal on all six cylinders. I made the measurement by making light marks on the front of the cylinder and taking the measurements of the distance difference with a digital caliper.

The at rest end shake is .008". I can feel the cylinder move with aft pressure but I can't get the .009" feeler between the cylinder and forcing cone. So the chnge with aft pressure is less than .001" greater.

With a lot of force against the crane, I can insert the .008" feeler into the gap created in the frame. This is accomplished up a considerable amount of pressure. With the gun at rest, the gap is less than .001".

Michael

Ribbonstone

I got my measuring sticks together and this is what I came up with on the 41 LC.

Rotational slack when cocked is .036". Slack with the hammer lowered and trigger pressure held is exactly half of the previous measurement....018". It is equal on all six cylinders. I made the measurement by making light marks on the front of the cylinder and taking the measurements of the distance difference with a digital caliper.

The at rest end shake is .008". I can feel the cylinder move with aft pressure but I can't get the .009" feeler between the cylinder and forcing cone. So the chnge with aft pressure is less than .001" greater.

With a lot of force against the crane, I can insert the .008" feeler into the gap created in the frame. This is accomplished up a considerable amount of pressure. With the gun at rest, the gap is less than .001".

Michael

Sounds reasonable for that model...that rotational slcak is the big problem, but they all seem to have it. If you look carfully, the cylinder latch is actaully the main holding force to keep the cylinder in line...the latch has a "tooth" that contacts the cylinder ratchet and slips into place as the hand rotates the cylinder in line.

I'd not tell somone to work one of these old revolvers...can be frustrating, and eaisly break non-replaceable parts...but if there is signifcant slack in the latch, it's being translated as rotaional slack in the cylinder. Try pressing the cylinder latch forward and holding it against any "wiggling" and then check rotational play.

Do a simple second test. EMPTY GUN!!!! Fill the cylinders with a ball fully white cotton per chamber (don't let it hang out the front and tie up rotation). With a strong light over your shoulder, cock the gun and look down the barrel...'Wiggle' the cylinder...the white coton should refect enough light to let you see pretty well.

IF the edge of the chamber (the face of the cylinder) comes into view (or the refected white cotton starts to look "oval" rather than a full circle) you've got an alignment problem and I'd not shoot the old girl.

Thanks again ribbonstone. I will provide the follow up when I do the checking.