I bought a Sigarms Trailside a couple of months ago.

The first time I shot it, it worked flawlessly.

A buddy of mine came over for a visit, and I showed him my
new purchase. First thing he did was dry fire it.

I promptly took it away from him, and he is no longer
allowed to handle my firearms.

Anyway, since the dryfire, it fails to fire one in every 10-15 shots.

Pull the trigger... click, but no boom.

The indentation on the rim looks pretty weak.

The shots that fired had a stronger dent in the rim.

This gun came with all kinds of warnings about dryfire,
and I'm wondering if the firing pin was damaged. How can I tell?

Everything else seems to work fine. I stripped it down and the hammer seems to hit pleanty strong.

Anyone know how to remove the firing pin?

Here is a photo of one of the bullets that failed to fire.

Thanks in advance

Dave


http://home.mchsi.com/~david.webb/rimfire.jpg

Two things can happen when you dryfire a 22, especially if the firing pin is a shade too long. One, the pin can be blunted, or flattened at the tip, which spreads the impact over a wider area, resulting in less consistent ignition. Two, the pin can be compressed or shortened, with the same effect. Having never seen your gun, I cannot counsel on removing the firing pin, but I'm betting it involves removing roll pins and doing other things best left to the experts.
Here's my suggestion; from the rear, push on the firing pin base to make the front of it extend through the bolt. Use a good magnifying glass to examine it for damage. If there is another set of hands available, or a workable fixture, take a very fine needle file, and try to round off the edges of the firing pin, if you can see the damage. If it works, you're back in business. If not try contacting the factory about a new bolt.
And try not to be too hard on your "friend". There are lots of 22's that are dry-fired regularly with no ill effects. My Browning Buck Mark has a firing pin of the exact length needed. Long enough to fire consistently, but too short to reach the chamber mouth and damage something. It has been dry-fired thousands of times with nary a problem.
One other thing......if it only misfires evry 10-15 shots, it might not be the firing pin. Try a really thorough cleaning, especially the chamber and the breechface, in case there is something cushoning the blow of the firing pin.
Hope this helps.
PJ

I managed to get the firing pin out.
There isn't anything obviously wrong with it.

I'll be taking it to work so I can discuss it with Sigarms.
Maybe they can tell me what it's overall length is supposed
to be.

But I have a bit of a mystery on my hands.

Sigarms stresses over and over not to dry fire their
Trailside, because it will be damaged.

By it's design, I believe the only damage that can occur is
either the pin getting bent, blunted, or compressed... OR
that the pin can dimple in the chamber mouth.

By looking at the pin's overall reach as it is now, it can't
protrude far enough to reach the chamber mouth. I'm not
sure if that is by design, or by damage. If that was by
design, I'm not sure why they make such a fuss over not
dry firing it. Since it lacks a few thousanths of an inch from
reaching it, I would tend to believe it was by design.

I think enough force to compress a firing pin would also be
enough force to dimple the chamber mouth. I don't seen
any indication the chamber mouth has ever been struck.

So I'm wondering at this point if this pin was simply made
too short. If not, I'm going to have to see if I can have
one made that is 50/1000" longer.

I've cleaned the gun until it was completely spotless.
Cleaner than new. I've chambered emply shells and fired
the brass to see the effects. The pin marks all look the
same. VERY weak. I've seen guns that crushed the rim
very well. Something has to be changed.

Dave

Dave,
I have a suggestion. Could it be you ammunition? Some guns shooter better, with different ammo. Just a thought.

Recko

I tried Winchester Wildcat, and that mexican aguili (sp?) stuff.
Same problem with both.

I had first considered it might be the ammo...
but the firing pin dent is obviously not strong enough.

Dave

I spoke to Sigarms' gunsmith Dave.

I asked if he had the specifications of the firing pin.
He did not.

I explained that the firing pin marks on the shell cases
were very weak.

I explained that I stripped the gun down, and cleaned it
thoroughly. I explained that I checked and double
checked that the firing pin cannot strike the chamber,
because it is too short.

First, Dave explained that damage can occur as a result of
dry firing the gun. But he said that the damage occurs
slowly and that it usually takes hundreds of times. And
that the damage occurs to the chamber. Since the
chamber cannot be replaced, the damage is permanant.

Second, Dave said that my problem was due to shooting
"dirty" ammo. The chamber was dirty, and the shell wasn't
seating completely. The hammer was pushing the firing
pin to it's limit, and then pushing the slide forward to seat
the bullet in the chamber. This wasn't leaving enough
energy to fire the round.

This makes total sense, as I even noticed some shells
had problems seating when I loaded them individually.

However, when I manually load an empty case, seat it
firmly, and pull the trigger, the pin mark is still weak.

And he argued with me about my firing pin being
capable of striking the chamber.

He must have forgotten that the gun is on my desk, not
his. He didn't push the firing pin forward in the slide, and
lay a straight edge across the face of the slide to see that
the pin didn't reach far enough.

I know the firing pins are mass produced, and every one
should be identical. So there probably isn't room for mine
to be short compared to any other.

However, I know this problem of missfires isn't unique to
my gun. Other Trailsides have the same problem.

Dave

Just because the pin won't reach the slide when you press it even with the back of the slide, doesn't mean it won't hit the slide in use....inerti pins are made shorter, but they keep on traveling inward (inertia).

Take small rod/punch that is smaller than the diameter of the pin, and press on the rear end of it...it will go in past level with the slide; this is what happens at the shot, the pin diesn't suddenly come to a dead stop when the hammer stops moving...hammner is the que ball, pin the 3 ball, and the cartride is the 6 ball as in a combination pool shot.

RF's have shoulder on the pin or limiting cross pin that is supose to stop the firing pin's travel before striking the breech face...but the limit is set close, and guns have tolerances, so a slight mark isn't unusual for a dry-fired gun.

Some center fires use inertia pins...and as there is nothing in the middle of an empty chamber for the pin to strike, they can protrude a good long way before coming to a stop by it's limiting shoulder or cross pin.

Have to agree that cleaning a gun is the best way to keep it functioning...a layer of crud makes a good cushion, and will show shallow pin hits. The tigheter to tolerances, the more the effect of fouling.

Just because the pin won't reach the slide when you press it even with the back of the slide, doesn't mean it won't hit the slide in use....inerti pins are made shorter, but they keep on traveling inward (inertia).

Take small rod/punch that is smaller than the diameter of the pin, and press on the rear end of it...it will go in past level with the slide

I did push the pin forward as far as the roll pin will allow.
The firing-pin is notched and the roll-pin limits it's travel
both forward and back.

When the pin is pushed ALL the way forward, the butt end
is flush with the edge of it's bore. Or at least VERY close
to being flush. And in this position, the pin doesn't extend
out enough to reach a straightedge placed across the face
of the slide. Hence my statement that it can't reach the
chamber, and my conclusion that it is not made long
enough.

As a test, I will reassemble the gun and slide a piece of
aluminum foil between the slide and the breech and dry
fire. I predict there won't be a mark on the foil. If there
isn't, that is evidence of a problem as far as I'm concerned.


RF's have shoulder on the pin or limiting cross pin that is supose to stop the firing pin's travel before striking the breech face...but the limit is set close, and guns have tolerances, so a slight mark isn't unusual for a dry-fired gun.

I was not aware of rimfires having anything to limit forward
travel of the firing pin to prevent it from contacting the
chamber or breech face. I'm not that experienced with
them, but I was under the impression that to ensure
reliable ignition, the firing pin had to be allowed to go
at least as far as impacting the breech.

Sigarms assured me that the Trailside WILL strike the
chamber, hence the warning of damage if it is dry fired.

If the firing pin was designed to come close, but not
actually strike the breech fact, it would be safe to dry fire
all day long.

Have to agree that cleaning a gun is the best way to keep it functioning...a layer of crud makes a good cushion, and will show shallow pin hits. The tigheter to tolerances, the more the effect of fouling.

I agree too, but as I said, the pin marks appear weak
even after a thorough cleaning.

Dave

Okay - No more jokes about rubbing the gun with Viagra to make the firing pin longer.

:)

Dave

Don't have a Sig handy to look at...but if there is a roll pin that contacts the firing pin body and halts forward motion, that's you limiter.


Not sure any gun is safe to dry fire all day, at least not one where the firing pin comes to an abrupt stop against a shoulder or cross pin. The brass case acts a bit like a cushion as it dents. Without a case (or a primer) in place, the pin flies forward and slams into the stop (shoulder or cross pin) rather hard.

Can dry frie a (centerfire or rim fire) pistol or rifle empty...and dry fire with a primed (fired) case. Can easily feel the "deadness" of the impact when there is a primer, and the "clack" vibration of metal-to-metal contact (the pin's limiting device being struck by the pin) without.

Proably will last thousands and thousands of round, but will eventually bugger the shoulder or the pin used to limit it's travel, and repeated steel-to-steel impacts don't do wonders for the pin. Where ever there is a hole, sharp shoulder, or machine cut becomes a stress focus (if a good design, will have radius corners).
------------
My own question:

Have noticed a lot of steel firing pins taken from well used guns are magnetic. Noticed the replacements aren't. Remembering some of the lab time, magnetic metals are structually aligned, and being so, are not as strong in all directions.

SO...the questiuon is: does repeated impact in one direction eventually aligne the structre of the steel and "harden" it?

Couple of photos here.

I found a wood screw that fit perfectly in place of the roll pin.
It slid in easily, but there is zero wiggle room.

The first photo shows evidence that the firing pin stops it's
forward travel as soon as the base becomes flush with it's
bore. Note: the firing pin spring is NOT in the slide. The
firing pin was pushed forward until it seated against the
screw.

http://home.mchsi.com/~david.webb/pin_a.jpg


The second photo shows that the firing pin is (relatively speaking)
far from extending far enough to touch the chamber.

http://home.mchsi.com/~david.webb/pin_b.jpg

http://home.mchsi.com/~david.webb/pin_c.jpg

I don't have equipment suitable for measuring the distance
from the tip of the firing pin at it's greatest reach to the
face of the chamber. It is a very small distance, but the
photographs contradict what Sigarms says about the firing
pin being capable of striking the chamber.

Is this enough to make the gun unreliable?
Obviously in this case it is.

Dave

Don't have a Sig handy to look at...but if there is a roll pin that contacts the firing pin body and halts forward motion, that's you limiter.

Yea, and I'm debating whether to take a replacement pin
and grind off the part of the pin that halts the forward motion.
(assuming ALL pins are built identical, and too short)


Not sure any gun is safe to dry fire all day, at least not one where the firing pin comes to an abrupt stop against a shoulder or cross pin. The brass case acts a bit like a cushion as it dents. Without a case (or a primer) in place, the pin flies forward and slams into the stop (shoulder or cross pin) rather hard.


Agreed. However, all rimfires I have owned will strike a
blow to the chamber if a shell is not loaded.

My own question:

Have noticed a lot of steel firing pins taken from well used guns are magnetic. Noticed the replacements aren't. Remembering some of the lab time, magnetic metals are structually aligned, and being so, are not as strong in all directions.

SO...the questiuon is: does repeated impact in one direction eventually aligne the structre of the steel and "harden" it?

It is an old science experiment. I've been told you can take an otherwise unmagnetic railroad spike, point it north, and hit it with a hammer to make it magnetic.

I believe a lot of steels will work harden. ESPECIALLY if the alloy contains elevated levels of manganese.

Dave

The pin looks to be protuding far enough, and unless htat roll pin tht holds it in fails, shouldn't touch the breech face. Think we'd better look at eh toher end of the system, as from that picture, the pin tip couldn't have damaged itself...it didn't hit anything.

Other than switching ammo, it seems you've done all you can to figure out the problem. Are some other possibilites, but they'd require removing the corss pin and taking a good look at both the cross pin and the firing pin...from there would look at the minspring and hammer face...but if it keeps missfiring, may be that a trip back to Sig to have them sort it out would be less fustrating.

But I keep thinking, one dry-fire shouldn't have done anything to that pistol.

I guess my post about removing the firing pin didn't make it.

I had removed the cross pin, and the firing pin.
(hence my saying that I had the firing pin spring out so I
could take the photo)

The firing pin looks fine. It isn't bent that I can see.
If it were compressed from a dry fire, it would have been
compressed to the length just so that it touches the chamber.
Since it doesn't even reach that far, that can be ruled out.

So I agree, a dry fire didn't cause my problem.

I set the gun up so the firing pin was oriented properly,
without the cross pin, and without the spring.
I had a spent shell case in the breech, and I dry fired.

The impression left was noticably stronger.

Another observation...

The slide doesn't perfectly fit over the cartridge.
There is a small space between the rear of the shell and
the face of the slide when the round is fully inserted.

Not that I would ever expect a perfect fit. If it did sandwich
the rim between the slide and the breech, there could
be an accidental discharge.

However, the fact that the firing pin falls shy of reaching
the breech, and the rim of the shell is loose and not
necessarily touching the face of the slide...

Anyway, I think this gun would be happier if the firing pin
were a good 50/1000" longer.

We'll see what the length of the new firing pin is when I
get them. (Sig said 7 business days)

Dave

Let me make a correction.

The play between the rim of the shell and the space between
the faces of the slide and the breech is insignificant. That
isn't a factor in my problem.

Dave

i'm gonna throw my 2 cents in: i don't think the firing pin is supposed to reach the chamber, as the thickness of the .22 rim does not need to be "mashed flat" to ignite. the picture of the cartridge with the dent looks to me like the firing pin "footprint" is pretty large. the larger the pin tip, the more force that is required to ignite the round. maybe other trailside owners can compare their fired cartridges pin marks with the one in the pic. i have had to file the pin tip a little narrower on an AMT lightning (ruger MKII clone) of mine to get ignition. not pointed, just a little narrower flat surface on the tip.

monty

Got to agree...no real reason to have the space between firing pin point and the breech to be much less than the thickness of .22 brass x2...a little less, but not a lot. Once the pin has dented and piched the two sides of the rim into contact, and perhaps compessed it a bit, any more would serve no real good use.

See if they'll supply a new firing pin...at least you could do a head-to-head comparison.


As you've seen that the cross pin is what limits the forward travel, if it binds the pin in any way (as in rougness or being bent) it can slow the pin strike. Evidently the a shoulder on the firing pin strikes the cross pin to keep the firing pin's point that distance from the breech face.

Got to agree...no real reason to have the space between firing pin point and the breech to be much less than the thickness of .22 brass x2...a little less, but not a lot. Once the pin has dented and piched the two sides of the rim into contact, and perhaps compessed it a bit, any more would serve no real good use.

I agree.

However, if the firing pin was a bit longer, it would give it
some extra reach just in case the shell didn't seat all the way. Granted, it would increase the risk of damage to the
breech in the event of a dry fire, but if it were me, I'd rather take my chances with that over missfires.

See if they'll supply a new firing pin...at least you could do a head-to-head comparison.

I've got two on the way. Should get them next week.

As you've seen that the cross pin is what limits the forward travel, if it binds the pin in any way (as in rougness or being bent) it can slow the pin strike. Evidently the a shoulder on the firing pin strikes the cross pin to keep the firing pin's point that distance from the breech face.

I did see a small burr in the firing pin's bore created when they drilled the cross pin hole. I don't think it contributed to the problem, but as tight as the tolerances seem to be, I suppose anything could have made it worse.

I'm beginning to see now that the gunsmith at Sigarms was just plain wrong about the possibity of damage to the chamber from dryfiring. His saying that led me to the conclusion that my firing pin must have been made too short. However, after scrutinizing the actual function, it looks more likely it is designed to be the way it is.

I'm now starting reconsider the possibility that my problems were caused by a dirty chamber. If that is the case, however, what are my options? It didn't take more than 10 rounds to get "too dirty".

I'm considering taking one of the new pins and modifying it. Since I'll have extras, I'm not afraid to attempt welding some additional length to it. I'll have to find some nails to practice on first, to get the method down before I risk a $10 firing pin.

Dave

Have this old Pachmeyer .22 conversion for a S&W 39 (actually made by Peter Stahl). Nice unit...haven't had the gun back in 9mm for quite a few years...but set up tight. Just the least bit of fouling, and I get missfires. In this cae, would be fouling on the breech face...which sets the slide/firing pin back just a bit and acts as a cushion. With dirty ammo, may not make it through two magazines...with clean burning ammo, can make it though 40-50 rounds befor having to brush the breech face.

This system using the same type of firing pin locking safety as the original S&W..kind of wraps arround a "ball" on the pin to lock it in place. No option of making the exisiting pin longer....so I turned out a new pin on a small lathe, and made it just a bit longer (.006"). Devil of a lot of work getting the "ball" right.

With the new longer pin, the number of misfires decreased...but still happend in about the same proportion between dirty and clean burning ammo. Wasn't a "cure?" so the old pin got taken out and the original put back in (the hand-made on will get used if I ever break this one).

The cushion of fouling in this case is worth more than firing pin length; suspect no amount of length would overcome the deadening effects of just a few grains of powder or a small smear of lead in the wrong place.

I have seen some ammo that shoots clean in a rifle, but dirty in a pistol. I assumed it was due to the shorter barrel length not allowing for complete combustion.

The Winchester Wildcat seems to be doing that now.
It always seemed to leave my rifles clean, but it is pretty
dirty in this pistol.

I'm not sure if I am using faulty logic or not.

Is there such a thing as 22 rimfire ammo specifically designed for pistol use?

What would you recommend as a good clean ammo, that isn't going to break the bank?

Dave

That one pistol is the"stinker" of the group...for various reasons, fouling gets to it worse than other designs. Probably not an abundance of firing pin energy...although the bottom 1/2 of the pistol is the issue 9mm frame (and springs), belive the firing pin geometery makes less effective use of the power.

Other pisatols don't show any problems with fouling...fouling is there, but their designs just handle it better.

None of it nis truely "clean", they all leave a bit of fouling. But are some general ideas:

Most Eley (including the lower priced versions) seem to have softer cases. Pin impressions are deeper.

The "pistol match" ammo isn't any cleaner than the standard version, but most "match" ammo is a bit cleaner than Hi.Vel. PRoably from the smaller charges/faster burning poweder used in the lower vel. loading.

Give the Aguila SE (subsonic) a try...fouling is a lighter ash-gray color, with fewer ungurned hard-grains. havne't worked enough with Wolf.

The "better" (more expensive) WW "Power Points" haven't given me any trouble...aren't noticably more accurate, but are noticaible more effective on game.
---------
Won't do any harm to be sure that the firing pin, cross pin, and the races they move in are smooth and as friction free as possible. Look at the internal hammer for signes that it's rubbing or striking something besides the pin.
--------
Still have several boxes of Wildcat...haven't found anything that will set them off with 100% reliability. Getting bored, decided to break down the miss-fires to see why they didn't go off (if you have strong hands, can hold the round between your left hand's thumb and forefinger, and snap the bullet out with your right thumb).

Found a mix of powder and shattered primer mix in the case. Priming mix mostly gone from the rim recess. Evidently, in this lot, the priming mix didn't stick to the case rim recess...priming compound decided it was easier to just flake off/shatter when hit by the pin than to ignite.

Breaking down un fired (un-miss-fired?) rounds, show the priming mix starts out where it is supose to be...so evidently it's either a bit "crumbly" or has a low adhearence to the rim...could be the mix's fault, or that this lot's rim recess wasn't clean/oxide free when applied.

if you have strong hands, can hold the round between your left hand's thumb and forefinger, and snap the bullet out with your right thumb).


I've pulled several .22 bullets by first grabbing the bullet with a small pair of vice grips. Then just push the shell over with your thumb, and the bullet comes right out. Same idea,
but my thumbs aren't as strong as yours.

Dave

I have seen some ammo that shoots clean in a rifle, but dirty in a pistol. I assumed it was due to the shorter barrel length not allowing for complete combustion.

The Winchester Wildcat seems to be doing that now.
It always seemed to leave my rifles clean, but it is pretty
dirty in this pistol.

I'm not sure if I am using faulty logic or not.

Is there such a thing as 22 rimfire ammo specifically designed for pistol use?

What would you recommend as a good clean ammo, that isn't going to break the bank?

Dave

Dave, I don't know about that, but I have shot a bunch of CCI Mini-Mag HPs through my Mark II, and they don't seem to be terribly dirty, and never had a mistfire.

Kind of an apples-to-oranges comparison, with a different gun and different ammo..... but might be worth a box.

I've pulled several .22 bullets by first grabbing the bullet with a small pair of vice grips. Then just push the shell over with your thumb, and the bullet comes right out. Same idea,
but my thumbs aren't as strong as yours.

Dave

Just figure my thumbs can't set ne off...metal objects just might.

But...if you have some of the missfired ammo, may take a peep inside to see what's what.

Probably not your trouble...but it does go a little way to expalin the occasional miss-fire that RF ammo does have. HAve noticed a lot fewer missfires with hihger priced ammo than with the bulk-ammo and promotional.

----------
Once you get the replacemnt pin(s) and if you still think a longer pin would do the trick, can modify one. Looking at the pictures, the cross pin in the slide most act on a radius shoulder on the pin as a stop. Stone that shoulde back a tiny bit, and the pin would be sticking farther out of the beech when it reached that stop. Go too far, and it will ding against the chamber...but (with a good spare at hand) you'd only be out the $ of one pin to give it a try.