Martini Cadet actions

kbmoly · #1 02-09-2004, 11:48 AM

Hello all,

I need some help very badly. I have located a company who will manufacture brand new Martini Cadet Francotte actions (and rifles) to 'best quality' standards. All the equipment is set up, ready to go, and we've hit a dead end:

Despite numberless false leads, I simply cannot locate suitable AutoCad or Solidworks drawings for the manufacture. I can't even find paper drawings, though I've discovered the British archive where they're stored. But the Brits won't give or sell copies, or even allow copies to be made, though they will allow personal inspection - which is a bit akward from here.

Modern precision EDM machinery isn't much good if it can't be directed. I'm desparate and clutching at straws. Is there anyone out there who might have or be willing to manufacture the drawings we need to get going? This whole thing is going to fall through if I can't get them. Oh, and no, I simply don't have the mechanical skill to make them off of my own rifles.

Regards,
kbmoly

alyeska338 · #2 02-09-2004, 11:57 AM

I'm going to move this to the singleshot rifle forum. Less likely to get lost in the mix there.

You might want to contact the poster DD in this link, though:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showf...b=5&o=&fpart=1

Big Redhead · #3 02-13-2004, 01:49 AM

kbmoly,

There is a gunsmith in my area that specializes in custom rifles on Martini cadet actions. Maybe he can help, maybe not, but the info is:

Snapp's Gun Shop
6911 Washington Road
Clare, MI 48617
(989) 386-9226

I bought tickets from Mr. Snapp for one of the ACGG guild guns (didn't win

). He's a good guy.

If you strike out, I can create the drawings for you. I have 18 years engineering experience and 10 years in tool-and-die before that. Just send me an action and I'll measure it up and put it on AutoCAD for you.

I've always wanted a Martini, other than the Tanqueray variety. In the end, I would like to own one of the new guns if possible.

Live well

kbmoly · #4 02-13-2004, 07:28 AM

Thanks, Redhead.

>There is a gunsmith in my area that specializes in custom >rifles on Martini cadet actions. Maybe he can help, maybe >not, but the info is:

>Snapp's Gun Shop
>6911 Washington Road
>Clare, MI 48617
>(989) 386-9226

Bob is already an enthusiastic supporter of our dream, and has gone out of his way to encourage us with numerous examples and suggestions.

>If you strike out, I can create the drawings for you. I have >18 years engineering experience and 10 years in tool-and->die before that. Just send me an action and I'll measure it >up and put it on AutoCAD for you.

May I keep you as a backup? We have another fellow who has joined our effort, and is also an enthusiast of fine firearms as well as a CAD expert. However, mishaps and illnesses happen, and it would be nice to have an laternative in case of need.

>In the end, I would like to own one of the new guns if possible.

ME TOO! (VBG)

Regards, and thanks again,
Ken Mollohan

alyeska338 · #5 02-13-2004, 08:24 AM

I met Mr. Snapp at the ACGG show this year. Extremely nice and professional. His work with the martini's is incredible. I would highly recommend his work. He is President or Executive Director of Guild now, isn't he?

kbmoly · #6 02-13-2004, 08:52 AM

>I met Mr. Snapp at the ACGG show this year. Extremely nice and professional. His work with the martini's is incredible. I would highly recommend his work. He is President or Executive Director of Guild now, isn't he

Yes, he is. A gunsmith's gunsmith and a gentleman through and through. I only wish events would have permitted us to visit ere now, but I plan to see him in Pittsburgh soon.

Ken

alyeska338 · #7 02-13-2004, 09:39 AM

My wife and I got to sit at his table for awhile during the banquet one night. He is a true gentleman and his wife was really nice.

For the awards banquet we were invited to sit with Duane Wiebe and his crew. Was really an experience. Duane is great man also.

Everyone I met there, Mark Stratton, Al Lind, Gary Goudy, Ralf Martini, Chic Worthing, etc... were all first class. Ralph was an excellent host, introducing us to all the guild members. The only thing that overshadowed the incredible display of firearms was the kindness and family feel of the entire group.

Gowge · #8 03-01-2004, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbmoly

Hello all, I need some help very badly. I have located a company who will manufacture brand new Martini Cadet Francotte actions (and rifles) to 'best quality' standards. All the equipment is set up, ready to go, and we've hit a dead end:

Modern precision EDM machinery isn't much good if it can't be directed.
Regards,
kbmoly

Kbmoly, are the actions gonna' be (CNC) machined from steel forgings or from precision cast steel? I've wondered for a very long time, why someone couldn't offer reproductions of the best old single shot actions like the Cadet.

Anyone not familiar, here's a web page that describes the Cadet - http://64.177.205.5/martini/describe.htm

and.... http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...s/colonial.htm

It would be interesting if the actions could be produced from extruded, forged aluminum. Just cut a frame outline off the end of the extruded aluminum & drop into the CNC Machine!

This page below shows the disassembly of a Francotte Martini Cadet Action.

http://www.martinihenry.com/cadet.htm

The way the breechblock & trigger assembly locks into the receiver is very clever and increases the strength without adding to the complexity and weight of the whole action... One of the reasons it's so popular and why so many of us like this little rifle.

EASY PEASY!

kbmoly · #9 03-01-2004, 03:07 PM

Hello Gowge,

Things are moving along nicely (if slowly) on the Martini project. We have the EDM machinery up and running, and we have someone who is in the process of making AutoCAD drawings of a Francotte Cadet that will enable us to begin manufacture. We have considered using the EDM to clean up precision castings, and while that may be where we end up for the sake of economics and production volume, we currently plan to start with solid blocks of steel and cut away everything that doesn't look like it should be there. (BG) Right now, we're tearing our hair out because the barrel provider we had expected to work with decided that his barrels were about twice as valuable as we were led to believe. (Groan!)

We also have a few other firearms related projects under serious development - more on that as they come to fruition.

And thanks for the links. There's no such thing as too many resources!!

Regards,
kbmoly

Gowge · #10 03-01-2004, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbmoly

Hello Gowge,

Things are moving along nicely (if slowly) on the Martini project. We have considered using the EDM to clean up precision castings, and while that may be where we end up for the sake of economics and production volume, we currently plan to start with solid blocks of steel and cut away everything that doesn't look like it should be there.
Regards,
kbmoly

Thank you for the quick response! Precision, investment cast receivers are probably gonna' be the way to go unless you decide to chamber for high intensity cartridges...

I'm sure investment cast lock parts are the most cost effective method to manufacture those pieces as well.

I thought about this whole thing myself for quite some time, and you probably just need to ring up every barrel manufacturer out there and get bids on barrels. I have a source that can "Carbon Wrap" any barrel you supply if that interests anyone...

GOOD LUCK!

kenwoosley · #11 11-22-2004, 10:40 AM

KDMOLY sure would be interested in one of those new machined actions if you get them off the ground

Dave H · #12 05-04-2005, 03:28 AM

Ah music to my ears after 100 years some body rebuilding a martini action try the misurprifle site they maybe able to help I'm sure there were drawings of martini actions somewere in print.

kbmoly · #13 05-17-2005, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave H

Ah music to my ears after 100 years some body rebuilding a martini action try the misurprifle site they maybe able to help I'm sure there were drawings of martini actions somewere in print.

Dave, and all the others on the board,

I'm sorry to say that we've NOT been able to obtain appropriate Cadet Martini drawings, despite some rather extensive efforts.

I've located a fellow in Australia with a few line drawings of various version of the full size rifles, but they are missing critical dimensions. I've located the archives of the original manufacturers, but their drawings were pitched years ago because "we're manufacturers, not museum curators." I also located a possible set of drawings at the imperial war museum, which I am welcome to visit in England at my convenience, although no copies will be provided at any price, due to lack of time by the staff.

I've even located what is almost certain to be a viable set of drawings in Royal Military Archives, but they arean't available unless I can present releases from the current owners of the patent rights. (That's no joke! It's exactly what I was told!)

I'm also told by those more competent than I that the obvious answer of simply back-engineering one of my currently owned actions and replicating it isn't practical for a variety of reasons - that I don't understand.

Believe me, I'm sorry to report that that the project is on indefinite hold at best, and possibly dead.

Regards,
kbmoly

Dave H · #14 05-17-2005, 04:15 AM

I'm also told by those more competent than I that the obvious answer of simply back-engineering one of my currently owned actions and replicating it isn't practical for a variety of reasons - that I don't understand.
I never say die ! During WW2 The British ministry of defence required The blue prints of the High Power 9mm of course there was a small problem! Belgium was occupied! By the people that the British wanted to use the Brownings against ! so HPs were sent from china to Cannada & back engineered ! I would suggest a good drafts Person would be the one to approch reguards this project ! Even the Master Gunsmiths Giuld should be able to takle this project ! Even changing the shape of the action slightly would overcome any Pattent laws. I should imagine though after,over 100yrs that should'nt be a problem !NEVER SAY DIE !

kbmoly · #15 05-17-2005, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave H

I would suggest a good drafts Person would be the one to approch reguards this project ! Even the Master Gunsmiths Giuld should be able to takle this project ! Even changing the shape of the action slightly would overcome any Pattent laws. I should imagine though after,over 100yrs that should'nt be a problem !NEVER SAY DIE !

Well Dave,

My Dad had a little routine that he always went into in times like this: He'd ask "How old are you?" And no matter what the response might be, he'd follow up with "That's old enough that you should know better than to expect the world to be fair or make sense!"

Yes, any patent coverge has obviously expired long ago. But what does that matter? The requirement of the British government is that I obtain releases from the patent owners, common sense be BLEEPED! And with that sort of mind set, there just isn't any point in bringing rational thought into the process. The facts that the original inventors and the production companies have folded, most of the records don't seem to exist any more, and even the governments who used them have obsoleted them decades ago has no bearing: It's still the requirement. (As Dickens said, "If the law says THAT, then the law is an ***!" But it's STILL the official requirement.)

As for reverse engineering, I don't have the necessary skills, and don't know anyone who does. I have a friend with the necessary manufacturing facilities and equipment, but we'd need Autocad drawings, or something very similar. Know anyone who'd like to buy in with some sweat equity?

kbmoly