There is no doubt that there is a growing interest in Ultra-Bore guns in the USA. We see this post and that post about African/India double rifles, and that's nice. But we also see a large following of the American Lever Guns.....and that's traditional!
The Winchester 70-150 was made up in some prototype Winchester Mod 1887 lever guns. These early guns were on case harden frames. Later, about 1905 or so, there were some very strong blued steel guns made up. These lever shotguns were quite popular, only to be later replaced by the pumps. John Browning designed the lever guns.
There are some very strong 1887 type lever shotguns coming in the country now. With the people Gregg Sappington knows that are turning custom 12 gauge rifled barrels.......why not build up a custom .70-150 on one of these frames? The original slug was .730"!
The Terminator slug has a crimp groove. Abe K. has tested it with 150 grs. blackpowder and is very pleased.
Just a thought........James

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Dixie Slugs of Old Town Hammock, Florida
"Home of the Dixie Terminator Slug"

I have not seen this increase in big bore interest around my way. That is an old classic and would be quite a rifle, I still like singles and doubles a bit more but that would be a great project to take on.

Holy moly! I do love my big bores. If anyone ever makes one of these I could die a happy man. Did you mention that newer guns of this caliber exist, or am I just reading it wrong?

Bill

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Young enough to be crazy, but getting to old to be indestructable.

I see the biggest growth in the Ultra-Bores (12 ga rifled barrels) is areas tha the wild hog population is gone wild.
There is a Winchester clone Mod 1887/05 lever action 12 ga coming into the contry now that is said to be very strong, and could be rebarreled-works on 11.500 psi.....James

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Dixie Slugs of Old Town Hammock, Florida
"Home of the Dixie Terminator Slug"

INTERESTING! James, that looks sorta' like a 10ga brass shell necked down to a 12bore? Got any dimensions? I'm lookin' for them myself. While back when everyone was talkin' about brass 12ga shells, you mentioned the issues with crimping the Terminator in those shells - and that they had to be specially crimped or the shells necked down to fit?

Here's a color pic of the 70Winchester from the link below:

http://members.shaw.ca/curtito2/idpics.htm



And here's some oldies including a 70-150X900gr on the left...




L to R

70-150-900 Winchester ( dummy )
.58 Berdan Musket centrefire
50-70 US Govt Benet cup primed
45-75 Winchester
45-50 Peabody
44-60 Sharps
50-70 USG centerfire

Below: A reproduction of 70-150 Winchester with some 45cal and a 44cal BP cartridges...

Found this on the link below:

http://www.tsra.com/Winchest.htm

THE 1887 MODEL AND 1901 MODEL WINCHESTERS

Another John M. Browning design and one of the most unusual actions ever used by Winchester. It is a rolling block design shotgun chambered in 12 gauge and 10 gauge. A few were made in the .70-150 rifle cartridge and were designed to shoot a .70 caliber bullet of 700-900 grains.

Total produced from 1887 to 1898 - 64,855

The main special order options were limited to grade of the stock, barrel length and type of barrel. The standard barrel was rolled steel with three blade Damascus and four blade Damascus available at extra cost.

The Model 1901 is basically the same as the 1887 Model, but was offered in 10 gauge only. The 1901 had the same special order options and 79,455 were produced between 1901 to 1920.

*** They got up to 1500ft/sec with this monster from a rolled steel barrel? Wish we had the specs on this one. Maybe I can sort out the COL from the pictures... Looks kinda' like a 12ga BRASS shell could be necked down to the .729/.730 diameter of a Terminator or Predator and a proper chamber created in a rifled 12ga barrel to shoot these things! Midway lists both 12ga & 20ga BRASS Hulls.

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteabro...*652***9300***

12ga SPECS:

Material:Brass

Notes:

Solid brass hull

Uses large pistol primer

Intended for use with black powder and cork or fiber wads

Overshot card or wad can be glued in place at top edge of hull rather than crimping the brass hull

Overall length 2.475"

** With the Terminator crimped in the groove, the shell would still have to be necked down for a half inch. COL would come out around 2-3/4" with a full length BRASS shell?

KEWEL!

You got it, Gorge! As I see it, since this new actions are for a 2 3/4" shell.....use a 12 ga. brass shell cut to 2 1/2", sized 1/2" (Terminator is 1/4" forward crimp groove and that would put 1/2" inside the brass), and loaded with about 44 grs of Blue Dot (under max. pressure) giving about 1200'/" from a 24" barrel (.729" groove) with a 740 gr. slug. I also would have that barrel ported although some shooters don't like them. Now.......That would be a real American cannon!.....James

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Dixie Slugs of Old Town Hammock, Florida
"Home of the Dixie Terminator Slug"

You'll especially like the article on these guns at the link below:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...47/ai_74033113

In part, the article states....

An original John Browning design, the Model 1887 12 and 10 ga. lever-action shotgun is one of the rarest and most unusual shotguns ever built. Total production between 1887 and 1898 was only 64,855 guns, and then an improved Model 1901 in 10 ga. only was introduced.

A lesser-known, but fascinating fact is that Winchester actually chambered the M1887 for the 70-l50 Winchester rifle cartridge based on a necked-down brass, 12 ga. shotgun shell. The load was 150 grs. of powder with a bullet of 700 and 900 grs. Three such guns are known to exist.

The "New Model" 1887 was reverse-engineered from the improved Model 1901 and is now produced by the famous ADI Limited Lithgow Facility in Austrialia, that currently produces Steyr AUG and FN small arms for Australian and other defense forces.

Lithgow's Model 1887 is a finely fitted and finished 2 3/4" 12 ga. shotgun of historic significance. It sports an improved cylinder, 22" chrome-lined barrel, and American walnut stocks, and weighs 8.75 lbs. The magazine accepts five shells, and the rolling-block action is smooth as silk.

Suggested retail price is S1,195, and considering the complexity of the action, that's a reasonable price. This traditional Model 1887 will sell well with the cowboy action shooters, and those who simply enjoy owning and shooting something a bit different and tinged with nostalgia.

I'm repeating a paragraph from above - this is KEY to making the 70-150 Winchester work...

A lesser-known, but fascinating fact is that Winchester actually chambered the M1887 for the 70-l50 Winchester rifle cartridge based on a necked-down brass, 12 ga. shotgun shell. The load was 150 grs. of powder with a bullet of 700 and 900 grs. Three such guns are known to exist.


Here's pics of a Model 1901 in Ten Gauge. These OLD guns run almost $1,000 in the 1887 versions to this later model which is pushing $1800.

I wonder if the actions for both 12ga & 10ga were all basically the same size?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976445850.htm

Well.......This has been fun! Thanks to George for the great pictures posted!.......James

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Dixie Slugs of Old Town Hammock, Florida
"Home of the Dixie Terminator Slug"

JAMES, it's very interesting to note the article says there are three 70-150 Winchester Mod 1887 Rifles known to exist. Winchester apparently built these with some specific use in mind. You reckon they wanted TR to take one to Africa on his famous Safari? Did he take one and shoot it?

The time period is also significant in some ways. This was probably the height of the black powder bore rifle & Paradox Gun popularity and maybe Winchester figured the 70-150 would compete with the other guns in the American market.

I dunno - maybe the folks at Winchester have something on the rifles....

One article I read mentioned the black powder shot shells gummed up the works and were very messy to shoot in the Lever Action guns. They were said to be a real pain to clean after each use.


http://nra.nationalfirearms.museum/library/default.asp

GOOD LUCK!

Gowge.........You supposed they are any messier than cleaning a traditional black powder smoke pole?

Read that artical on the 6.5 and also the 6.8 once again in the march/april of a Petersen's magazine. Ummmmm interesting, pity it has taken so long for some to get their heads out of the sand. It's been a long time coming!

How do you rate the difference between the two calibers and which one you think will be the most successful as a military cartridge in the future?

The new Remington 6.8mm SPC is taking off like I figured it would. Dan Johnson of G&A just wrote this on another forum:

http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=247527

"I just returned from a week at the Editorial Roundtable at PASA Park. Not many new products announced but there was some news on the 6.8mm SPC. Remington had a LTR (Light Tactical Rifle) on hand and it was sweet. Picture a basic Heavy fluted barrel sniper rifle and scale it down to Model 7 proportions. Also, Thompson Center had some handguns and rifles on hand in the chambering and announced they will also be marketing a 6.8 SPC hunting load in cooperation with Hornady. The payload will be a 120 grain ShockWave bullet. Maybe this round will get off the ground yet. "

Some guys who have tried the REM 6.8mm have said it cuts small hogs in half and is deadly on deer as well. It can fit in a tiny single shot rifle or an equally tiny Mini-Mauser action. It packs a lotta' power in a small package. I think it's gonna' turn out to be very popular as a sporting cartridge as well as for the Military. I rang up my Congressman and solicited his support for funding the project for our TROOPS. It's such a small amount of $$$ to convert M16s & M4s to the 6.8mm. MOST of the rifles and carbines in use are in need of complete overhauls anyway. Instead of rebuilding OLD uppers, they could just install whole new uppers with updated accessory rails and a lot better cartridge.

It's gonna' be very interesting to follow this whole thing. I was on active duty back when the M16 was adopted, and wasn't able to follow the political side of that whole thing. Maybe the M16 will finally - after so many years, get a decent cartridge and do away with the .223 mouse altogether. I've hated that thing as a combat round from day ONE.

GOOD LUCK!

Supposedly, these 1886 copies are being imported by NORINCO. $529.95ea.

I have NO idea how strong the actions might be or if you could load anything but low power shotshells in these guns...

http://www.coyotecap.com/sales.htm

http://www.curtrich.com/gettingstarted1b-1.html



BTW - here's some conversions from grains to drams to grains that might interest you...

110 grain = 4.0228571 dram

150 grain = 5.4857143 dram

1 dram = 27.34375 grains

This might seem like a heavy charge, but here's what Samuel Baker White wrote about 150 years ago!

"......When I first visited Ceylon in 1845, there were several renowned sportsmen who counted their slain elephants by many hundreds, but there were no rifles. Ordinary smooth-bore shot-guns were the favourite weapons, loaded invariably with a double charge of powder and a hardened ball. In those days the usual calibre of a gun was No. 14 or 16. A No. 12 was extremely rare. The charge for No. 16 was 2 3/4 drams of fine grain powder, and drams for No. 12. Accordingly, the light guns, or "fowling-pieces," as they were termed, were severely tested by a charge of 6 drams of the strongest powder with a hardened bullet; nevertheless I never heard of any failure.
At a short range the velocity and penetration of an ounce spherical ball, with the heavy powder charge, were immense, but beyond 50 yards the accuracy was imperfect.
Twelve months' experience with elephants and buffaloes decided me to order a battery of double-barrelled rifles, No. 10, two-grooved, with 6 drams of fine grain powder, and spherical-belted bullets. These were most satisfactory, and they became the starting-point for future experiments."

(6 drams = 164.0625 grains) Anyone care to venture a guess what this produced in velocity? Any way to calculate it? A 14bore solid lead ball = 500grains. A 16bore ball = 1oz or 437.5gr. Mercury was used to harden the pure lead balls, so the weights remained pretty much the same.

GOOD LUCK!

Gowge,
You might find the article by R Seyfried in June 1988 G&A interesting. The focus of the article is 4 and 8 bore guns, with 10 drams in the 8 bore and a 1400 grain bullet, 1500 FPS was achieved.
Oh yeah, also generates 203 ft/lbs. of recoil!
Regards,
Bryan

Thanks Bryan. I'll see if I can find the article online somewhere. Here's a link to some good articles you might enjoy - especially the one "Return of The 4Bore!". It's two parts - a guy built his own 4Bore Double Rifle.

http://www.african-hunter.com/the_firearm_files.htm

(Edit) and here's another that's excellent, too!

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazin...d=553&magid=44


ENJOY!