There is a used .450 for sale down town.  I was going to go for the .45-70 but.........
I have posted this on a couple other sites but was wondering what this crowd thought about the issue.  Can a handloaded .450 equal a handloaded .45-70?

I think the difference between handloaded .450's and .45-70's won't be much at all. The old .45-70 loaded to "+P" pressures will always have an ever so slight edge just because it has a bit more case capacity. *But in terms of velocity, the two will be nearly identical. I'd say the difference between 300-350 grain loads would be no greater than 50 fps, 400 grain loads even less.

If you can get a good price on the .450, why not give her a go? But I'd stock up on brass just in case the new cartridge luster wears off down the road.

(Edited by Bill Lester at 5:54 pm on Mar. 30, 2001)

Brian Pierce wrote an article thats in this months Handloader. While he didn't come out and say it, the tone of the article says the 450 is waste of time. I tens to agree. Personally, I think the 45-70 is where the smart money is. As Bill said, will this cartridge be around in 5 years?

FWIW

Winchester's custom shop is chambering *a short action M70
in 450 Marlin.
Personaly I agree whole-heartily with Mr.Callahan, It may not be around long.

NRA Life Member
NMLRA Member

People are getting the impression it won't last, humm? I just don't understand why a cartridge doesn't last.  .307, .356, .375 Win., .41 Mag, all great loads.

FA18CUB,

BTW is that a Hornet driver from Cubi Point?

To the point at hand, none of the cartridges you mentioned do anything better than rounds that came before them. The .41 Magnum, while I personally love it, is the glaring example. Most people who want a big bore want a BIG BORE. Doesn't matter to them that the .41 will do virtually any job a revolver should be asked to perform.

In the case of the .307 and .356, I think the average hunter was a bit smarter than usually given credit. An oft-quoted Internet "gun expert" not withstanding, the ballistic facts are the .307 ain't no .308 nor is the .356 a .358 Winchester. The flat nose slugs required by tubular mags really put a hurting on downrange velocity, energy, and trajectory beyond 200 yards. Why buy a new rifle to gain maybe 50 yards of effective range over a .30-30 and not as good as a Savage 99 in .300, .308, or .358 using spitzer or even roundnose loads?

The .375 Winchester is a real snoozer in my opinion. A "hot" handload shoves a 250 to 260-grain bullet out of the muzzle around 1800 fps. Compare that to a .44 Magnum/265 in a 20" carbine. Less than 200 fps down to the .375, but with a larger meplat and fired in a slightly lighter and shorter weapon. That's with a true handgun cartridge!


(Edited by Bill Lester at 6:00 pm on April 28, 2001)

No - Hornets from California and Japan.  The way I look at it  you stick to the rifle... .307 is plenty better then a .30 -30 and a .356 is loads better then say a .35 Rem in a 336 Marlin.  But I was really curious if this .450 was worth getting since there is one in the used reifle rack.

I weigh the 450 as a sleeper. Just languishing as the 444Marlin did. The fact is a lot of gun owners don't reload, so there is a niche. As long as people are enamored with the big bores, it may hang on. The 307 and 356 are not true big bores and didn't get into the magnumitis category either. I think anyone that spends &#362385 for a M70 in 450 is one step ahead of the people in the white coats. Delusional! JMHO,FWIW.

Get the .45-70.  Brass is way cheaper, and you don't have to worry about whether or not the cartridge is going to "last."  If you load both up to the same pressures, the .45-70 will have a slight edge, but not by much.  If you want the G in .45-70, contact Kielser's Police Supply in Jeffersonville, Indiana.  Get the number from directory assistance, go to retail sales.  I was in there yesterday and they had 1895SS, 1895G, 1894 Outfitter, a stainless steel 336 30-30, and a Davidson's special edition Marlin Guide Gun in .35 Remington, ported of course.  They will transfer anywhere to an FFL holder.

FA18CUB,

While the .307 Winchester may appear to be way ahead of the .30-30, it isn't in a practical sense. Yes you can start 150's 300-400 fps faster, but the typical Winchester 94 doesn't provide the accuracy needed to take advantage of that beyond 200 or so yards on antelope and deer. So where is the real world advantage? The deer won't be any deader if hit by a .307/150 than a .30-30/150 within the rifle's 150 yard effective range. In my experience hunters who choose the lever-action over other types are results oriented. They don't trade-in their guns unless the newbie really performs. If the .307 could really do in the field what its paper ballistics said it could the cartridge would've been a raging success. But it doesn't and wasn't.

To a lesser degree the same applies to the .356, but many hunters are willing to give up desires for long-range shooting to gain some extra oomph when bear, elk or moose are in season. That the .356 provides. But most people hunt whitetails, so in this case we're faced with excessive power for most consumers. A few serious elk hunters can't buy enough ammo and guns to make the cartridge financially viable for Winchester to keep it in production.

Dear Bill,

Thank you for your kind words on the .30-30.   Dead is dead and the .30 twice has been doing it for 106 years. If it had'nt worked so well, it would have died a long time ago. But at 106 years of age, she's still going strong!

Paper ballistics are just that.  A friend of mine who has hunted deer for over 50 years  decided to try a .308 because his buddy said he should ... more powerful, etc.   Funny, he said, that .308 does'nt always drop deer in their tracks like the good old .30-30!

A flat nosed bullet with plenty of lead exposed, kills all out of porportion to what paper ballistics would have the reader believe!

Thank you again,
  w30wcf

John I think you're spot-on regarding the situation. Within the .30 WCF's range limitations it is even better today than at its birth. That "range limitation" really isn't much for a dedicated hunter, as opposed to those roonies afflicted with magnumitus and dreams of 500 yard kills. This goes for any number of cartridges- .250 Savage, .270 Winchester, 7X57mm Mauser, .30-06, and yes our beloved .444 and .45-70. All have sort of taken it on the chin from those who believe velocity is everything. Velocity is nice, but I believe it is the least important variable in the cartridge performance equation. Bullet weight, construction suited to the game, and accurate placement are all far more important.

If limited to just one rifle, the .30-30 wouldn't be my first choice. But it sure as heck wouldn't be anywhere near the bottom of the list either!

New Guide Gun .45-70 was on sale at the trade show for &#36399. I bought it.

Good to hear 'CUB.  Are you set up to load for the .45 U.S.? I noticed in Midway's April catalog that Remington nickel cases are on sale, &#3645/100.

I know remington makes a great product, I just couldn't bring myself to use it if I have a choice.  I will try and find some Win. brass.  I was going to get a Lee Die set.