I'm new to the forum so if this is overly plowed ground forgive me. I am picking up on the general opinion that handloads for personal defense is not a great idea either because of reliability or legal posturing. I can guess at part of the legal reason, but why can't a good lawyer in a civil trial make the point that as a handloader/reloader you are more deliberate,more responsible than the average gun owner? I am not a hardhead, so if your opinions run strogly against using your own loads I'll buy a magazine's worth of Speer Gold Dots for every caliber I have and let it go at that, or are those too exotic for your average prospective juror also??

Get the Gold Dots. I handload and trust my ammo but I don't want any extra liability. Why take any extra chances, it would be bad enough if you had to shoot someone and worse if you had to defend your mentality. It just aint worth it. I'll bet this question comes up in most carry classes. The instructor that I went to was very specific about not using handloads.

Your not going to be in any legal jeopardy for using hand loads in your defensive encounter unless you have concocted some weird projectile in place of the bullet. Even then I doubt it. Your're either justified or not.
If you’re justified in using deadly force, what load you used makes no difference.
That would be like getting sued because you used a 12 gauge 00 buck instead of 00 buck reduced recoil.
It is urban myth that a judgment would be entered against you in this case. I have researched at great extent and have found no legal document proving this and no precedence on the books.
I carry factory loads because they work just fine.

Seems odd to me that someone would carry factory ammo but recommend handloads to others. My handloads work just fine also but I can't come up with any valid reason to expose myself to "reasonable doubt". I never researched a precedent but I bet somewhere right now, there is a guy in jail who was the first to break a law or test the system.
Would be best to read your states laws and or check with your local law enforcement agencies and see what they say.

SD and CCW questions come up all the time at my range club. Best comment I've heard to date on the "ammo" question had to do with over penetration. Say you fire your handload at a threat and by some chance, you clip some belly fat and the bullet hits the small unseen child. If you don't think an attorney will have a field day with the horrible deadly murderous ammo you created, then you have nothing to worry about.

This aint no game boys. You can talk tough and play G I Joe all you want to but if you pull that pistol, you better be right.

I agree w/ the urban myth intrepretation. Following this area of legality for over 30 years I have never heard of a single case where using handloads was germane to a case of self defense. Of course, I would appreciate being educated if I've missed anything.

Another question...just how would the cops know your loads are handloads? I can duplicate core-bon 40 SW to the extent that I've mixed up my loads w/ store bought. Used the same bullets Core-Bon uses (Sierra 135 grainers) and the same brass.

Nevertheless, for reliability, I prefer to use store bought in my personal defense guns.

All valid points leverite and believe me, we've kicked around just about every scenario. Seen arguments at the club actually get heated over this issue. It is my understanding that if you use your carry gun, it may be taken from you until an investigation is completed as well as any and all ammo you have with you. (this could vary state to state) They tell me that in a matter of hours, every component used in the ammo can be identified by brand. I always like the simple common sense approach, why take even a remote chance when it's so easy not to have to worry about it. There are far too many laws that have gray areas and arguing you're in the right won't make any difference. Drink one beer on the way home from work, you're under the legal limit to drive....until someone pulls out in front of you and have an accident. It was their fault, alcohol was not a factor, right? The law is on your side?

All-
Please don't use handloads for self defense applications! THERE HAS BEEN lots of artlicles written on this by several authors over the years. Notably, Massad Ayoob has written alot about this and has several court cases that he has been involved with on this subject. A liberal DA may/will paint you as somesort of "mad scientist" that is making "super killer" bullets in his/her basement. If you are actually unfortunate enough to be involved in a shooting, you will have enough to worry about (no matter how right or justified you are in your actions ) legally. Do not give the other side any ammo to hurt you with in your case. The problems with using handloads has been well documented and actual in the courts over the years. Also, this has been an issue in courts around the country...not just liberal east coast towns. Contact the defensive institute and you will be able to read some more specifics.
One more topic on this subject. Don't limit yourself with one brand or the other. I carry gold dots in my 45 because it's the most accurate. Pick the most reliable and accurate modern hollow point. Reliability of function and accuracy are the most important thing. Most modern hollow point designs are going to perform pretty similar in terms of terminal performance. Speaking on that, as I am a ICU/ER RN, I have seen quite a few shootings and handgun wounds. Not to mention 6yrs in Army INfantry. There is no such thing as a handgun that's great for putting people down quick. Brain or spinal cord shots are the only thing that bring any handgun up to the same level as a rifle or shotgun. My point is to keep the limitations of your handgun in mind and don't have unrealistic expectations about it. Good Luck!

lda444, I don't think this has been proven anywhere. Do you have any links or proof?
I for one use hand loads in my carry guns. The last thing I would worry about after shooting someone is what bullet I used to protect myself or family.
The minute you pull the trigger you life has changed as you know it. God know, no one wants to have to take someone's else's life.

As with all of you, this is not something I take lightly.

If I want ammo that I know will perform when I pull the trigger, I use my own handloads. This means that my G20, Blackhawk, 1911, and 1895G are all stuffed with handloads.

If I brandish or shoot someone to defend the life of myself or my family, or if I brandish or shoot someone to save someone else's life, I believe the action is justified.

If I brandish or shoot someone for pretty much any other reason (anger, vengence, etc.), I believe the action is not justified.

I'll answer to the courts if either case ever occurs (assuming I survive the incident), but first I have to answer both to myself and the real Judge. Regardless of what the courts dictate, the real Judge will know the truth and judge me correctly.

I'm not concerned with whether or not the use of handloads will hurt my case.

Yes, I actually do have proof that his has been an issue in the courts and that it has caused undo legal problems. As I said in my previous post, call the Defensive Institute (ie Defense Associates ) at 203-261-8719 and they will send you the specific court cases pertaining to this matter. This organization is ran by Chuck Taylor and Massad Ayoob. Now, I am not a huge fan of Ayoobs, but he does a lot of training and is considered a expert witness. Chuck Taylor is considered one of the autorities on pistol training in the world, and he recently put a seminar on at a local range. This subject is touched on---it's not a good idea at all to carry handloads in your carry gun. Doing so opens yourself up to undo legal bs. For those who have made a stance on this issue and will not change your ways, my prayers are with you. Hopefully you will never need to know. But, there is no real measurable (for me ) advantage to doing so and only negatives. Understand, I am speaking of cc for defense against people. If your in the backwoods of nowhere and are carring a 44/45 revolver or rifle for defense against 4-leg type predators, I see no problem with handloads and I actually do load my own for that purpose. But, me ccw for the street always has factory ammo. I hope this helps and this post finds everyone in good health this morning! Keep safe!!!!!

Blackhawkfan, great post.

I carry factory only. I want one less thing to have to worry about if I find myself in court.

Saying there is no precedent for something in court is a VERY wishful position. There was no precedent for acquitting a murderer because his blood-soaked gloves had shrunk. There was no legal precendent for awarding a million dollars for spilled coffee.

Would I want to trust the rest of my life to sane and rational juries like those? Uh...no.

__________________
To see my books and articles, just Google my name.

RR- Excellant points. Another resource for this is to call Combat Handgun magazine and ask them to do a resource search on articles by Ayoob on this issue. He has written several articles in this magazine alone, naming the specific case and his role as an expert witness in the case, on shootings done with handloaded ammo. It's just more trouble than it is worth. Hopefully, folks have some things to think about and will make the right decision for themselves. Good luck and keep safe!

I have to strongly disagree with your view. All CCH Instructors in NC have to pass the Course on Legal Issues of Lethal Force. We took the class at the NC Justice Academy, and L. Reese Trimmer, our instructor was the Lead Attorney in the Justice Departments Lethal Force Division. He suggested that hand loads was of little concern if you were justified in using deadly force, but their is more to the story.

Once you are cleared, and no charges filed because you were within your rights to use deadly force, your problems are no where near being over.
He said the odds are 90% or better that you will end up in Civil Court as a Defendant in a wrongful death suit. Mr Trimmers main job with the Justice Department was defending Law Enforcement Officers that were sued after they were cleared by Internal Affairs. As he put it, why would you not try to obtain a huge settlement, when you have a waiting line of Attorneys willing to take your case with NO money out of your pocket.

Mr. Trimmer also has been called in as a Professional Witness in many wrongful death cases involving civilians. He said that a "good" snake oil attorney can and will pick up on the smallest bit of information, no matter how inaccurate,to make the law abiding Defendant look like a Rambo type that spends every waking hour studying new and nastier ways to take someones life.

Here is where the hand load scenario was brought up, when a student asked him if he could recall for the class an actual event that he witnessed in court. He never blinked, and asked for a show of hands of those that carry hand loads in their concealed carry firearms. Roughly half of the class raised their hands. Mr Trimmer then launched into a tirade, calling us "blood thirsty, cold blooded killers! Factory ammunition just does not satisfy your desire to main and destroy a fellow human. Not only did you take his life, you did it with ammunition made by your own hands
so you can inflict the worst possible pain and suffering, instead of using over the counter ammo that is designed to wound. The fact is you designed and made your own ammunition, just to make sure there was no way a Doctor could save his life!"

It got very quite in that room. Finally someone asked Mr. Trimmer who would believe such nonsense. The only response was "A jury that knows no better". When asked if he debunked that theory when he was on the stand, he said "sure, but it's hard to convince someone that the lawyers attack was total BS. If you don't carry hand loads, the attorney loses that line of attack. It's your butt on the line, and my advice to you is to think ahead."

He ended that portion of the class with some excellent advice. His suggestion was to find out what brand of ammo your local Law Enforcement carries, and use that. If you find out what your city police, sheriff's department or State Troopers carry, odds are one of those loads will work for those that carry semi-auto carry guns. Another suggestion was any ammo that was designed for Personal defense, since they are designed to stay in the body.

I can find nothing wrong with his logic. I also agree that odds are you will be dragged into civil court, and YOU have to pay for your attorney. Every line of attack you take away from the prosecuting attorney is time saved in the trial. Even a short trial will financially ruin the average person paying his attorney fees. If your found guilty in civil court, you can tack the settlement to your legal fees, and that would be enough to drain the pockets of all but the ultra wealthy.

That is exactly what I teach in my CCH classes. After that, it's up to you.
The only one to even remotely disagreed asked me "Do you know what it would cost to test all of that factory ammo in my 1911?" Yes I do know how much it costs. If that is a problem, maybe you should use a revolver as your carry gun. You can buy one box of ammo, sight the gun in and have ammo left over. (I will never carry defensive ammo in a semi auto, unless I get 500 straight rounds with no failure of any type. Yes, it's costly. We are talking about a gun that must defend my family and my life. That being the case, I think the cost of 10 boxes of a quality defensive ammo is a bargain)

I hope this gives you all something to consider.

Thanks for the read

Gene

[quote=lumberjak;316751]
Say you fire your handload at a threat and by some chance, you clip some belly fat and the bullet hits the small unseen child. If you don't think an attorney will have a field day with the horrible deadly murderous ammo you created, then you have nothing to worry about. Quote


Lumberjack

Overpenetration can happen with factory ammo also.