Yup, and out of a 4 and 5/8s inch bbl (Ruger Blackhawk)to boot. This was achieved using several 155 gr .40 cal handgun bullets and Knight black powder sabots .452 in diameter over Green Dot.

Shot to shot velocity has a 20 fps variation, there is NO plactic build up, and it equals the accuracy I get from conventional loads. Although this is 1000 FPE, recoil is mild. Sabots and bullets do not move under recoil.

The 45 Colt twist rate matches the specs for 10MM and 40 S&W handguns (1 in 16), and I feel that the accuracy potential for 180 and 200 gr .40 cal bullets is outstanding.

Cost can be very low, as one can use cast, unlubed lead bullets with no risk of leading. This is a whole new ball game in handgun reloading.

Loader,

Sounds interesting, what Green Dot weight?

Dan

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DOK

DOK -

Since this is a public forum, let me give you 2 loads that are below max usung my components in my gun. Both ues Knight Brown Sabots for shooting .40 caliber bullets in .451/.452 bores using black powder. Both bullets are 155 gr speer Gold dots.

1. Green dot 7.6 grs; 1246 fps.
2. Green dot 12.8 grs; 1627 fps.

COL is critical at 1.587 inches. I use Win Large Pistol primers.

The cases are sized and belled with a light campfer to keep the mouth from shaving off plactic. No crimp is required, and will increase velocity and pressure.

I am now working up 180 gr Gold Dot and cast lead loads in .40 cal and settled on Blue dot. So far, 1500 fps is easily reached with mild pressure. The 180 Gold Dots are very devastating at this velocity, and additional velocity will be just curiosity for me.

Note that light pressure is required to fully seat a loaded round in the cylinder the last .10 inch or so. This is a good sign as it indicates that the sabot petals are engaged in the cylinder throat. If they do not engage, I assume that this is a hazardous condition, but I have had no problem with it. I one were to use the shorter Colt brass in a Casull, for example, the sabots could hang up on the front of the 454 chamber.

Also, don't intuit loads from published data and COLs, as the sabots use up some case capacity. A chronograph is a must to work up these loads, and my limit is 1000 ft-lbs of ME. More is possible, but not necessary. Once you see what a 180 gr Gold Dot can do at 1500 fps, I think you will agree!

I have always like the 45 LC in the Blackhawk, with the fast twist rate and lower velocities. The 360 gr LGC will not stabilize predictably in my 454 Casull at 1000 fps, but is fine in the Blackhawk. The Casull uses a twist rate of 22 to 24 inches, and the LC is 16 inches. Big difference. Now the 45 LC appears to have some practical defensive applications, with 300 fps on the 10mm auto. Once I get some $, I plan to work with it in a Taurus snubbie. If I'm right, the 155s will still do 1500 fps in a 2 inch bbl, given the fast powders and expansion ratios that apply. Not bad for a belly gun...

Please let me know if you get any results of your own.

Loader,

Really appreciate the information and guarantee you I'll give it a try. Unfortunately, my area in Florida doesn't have a shop with the material needed but I'll definitely use your data back in my home state of Iowa starting in May. I've had excellent results with 8.0gr. of Green Dot for practice loads in the Blackhawks and look forward to using it some more.

Thanks again and if additional insights occur, please let us know.

Dan

__________________
DOK

loader,
You have my attention. 1700FPS from a 4 5/8" Blackhawk.
Whoopie! I will definatly check my local supply place for the sabots.
However do you have any source you can recomend?

Have you any idea what the results would be if you tried these loads from a 16" Trapper?
And do you think the pressures would be OK for a S&W 25-5?

J

The Knight sabots can be found at any retail store that sells black powder hunting components. By phone, call MMP Sabots, (501) 741-5019. These are recommended by Savage arms for their new smokeless powder muzzle loader.

For the Trapper, I would guess 200 to 300 fps more velocity. However, you may have difficulty working the sabot rounds through your action as the petals protrude forward. If they hang up on anything, or get folded over, they will have the same effect as a restricted chamber - hazardous.

I think that there are no free lunches, and the Blackhawk loads are generating up to 1000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy with some pretty quick powders. I would not use the Smith for this kind of experimentation.

loader,

Thanks for the info. I am going to find some sabots and load some up.
And I will pay attention to chambering. I would't want any problems.

I'm looking forward to your further experiments on heavier bullets too.

Thanks again, J

You can do it with 155gr LSWC 45 caliber bullets too, accuracy sucks though since you're practically shooting a dime those things are so flat (low sectional density).

What kind of accuracy were you getting with the saboted loads?

__________________
John

http://www.handloads.com

So far, I have only done limited accuracy testing with the 180 gr and Blue dot @ 1500 fps, and it is 1.85 inches at 25 yards when I do my part. SD on the 180s is .161, or about like a 205 gr 45. These are a priority as they are intended for hunting.

Hotter 180 loads are being worked up this PM.

Loader,
this is some very interesting info, another chapter on handloading possibilities. Do you really want to shoot 155's at 1500fps out of a snubbie? Is it possible to use .41 bullets in the sabots designed for the .40 cal?

DOK, where do I find these sabots in Iowa? They sound like a good, low recoil option in my .454 for learnign to shoot the Encore well, but maybe you have some better suggestions for plinker loads with cast bullets, let me know please.
Selmer

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"When you're on, shoot, when you're off, shoot until you're on"

Sorry, but the 41s are too large. They flair the petals on the sabots and you can't seat them in the case. Anyway, the sabots are pretty hard, and fit the bore tightly, so there would be pressure consequences if you could.

On the experimental front, I have found that Longshot is an excellent powder for the 180 gr 40 sabots in my 45 LC Blackhawk. Velocity went up, and pressure went down, with no objectionable muzzle flash from the 4&5/8 inch bbl. Velocity is now 1650 fps for 1100 fp. The cases slide out very easily, and the primers are not flattened, but I consider this max because of the fp energy. 1100 fp is a LOT of energy in this bbl length, so I figure it is ENOUGH.

What is needed for this application is a relatively soft, 200 gr cast .40 cal bullet @ 1500 fps. Jackets are pretty much a waste using sabots, and a bit more sectional density would be great for hunting.

We've got the .40 caliber bullet you asked for! .401"-200gWFNGC it can be ordered either BHN 21 (standard) or BHN 11 (on request) if a softer bullet is desired.

Here's the link:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bull...php?catagory=6

God Bless,

Marshall

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Marshall
Romans 1:16



Beartooth: A Bullet Worth Waiting For!

Selmer,

I live in Cedar Rapids and do most of my firearms/ammo trading at either Fin & Feather in C.R. and Iowa City or Scheels All Sports in the Coral Ridge Mall in Iowa City. I know Scheels carries a reasonable selection of black powder items such as the sabots in question.

I would think that Midway or Cabelas would also handle the items in question and if you don't have their catalogs, they're both on the web.

Unfortunately I can't help much with lighter loads for the .454. While I've worked up several max. loads, I've always switched to the .45LC revolvers for lighter loads. Since you can use the 45LC cartridge, I can recommend 13.0gr. of HS 6 as medium recoil and excellent accuracy (at least in my revolvers),

Dan

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DOK

By phone, call MMP Sabots, (501)
741-5019. These are recommended by Savage arms for their new smokeless powder muzzle loader.

Note that I am using Knight Brown sabots, and not MMP. There might be dimentional and pressure differences.