According to Remington, this new cartridge will replace the .223 in M16s & M4s, etc. It's basically a miniature .270 in the old obsolete 30 Remington Case (.422 Case Head Diamter) that's trimmed to 43mm OAL. The head diameter is between the .223 and 7.62X39 Russian.

On the link below, there's some pics and this is what SSK has to say about it:

The 6.8 used 270 caliber (.277”) diameter bullets. Nominal bullet weight is 115 grains for a velocity of 2650 from a 16.5” barrel.

The cartridge was originally a military development and cartridge head size is identical with the 30 Remington. Its purpose is to provide better wound capabilities than the 5.56. At this time its future in the military arena is uncertain. Its future in the civilian arena is assured. I consider it an accurate, light recoiling, 300 yard deer cartridge provided the right bullets are used.

Interestingly the ballistics are mirror images of the 270 JDJ which has been available in Contenders for over two decades. Our experience with that cartridge has always been favorable.

http://www.sskindustries.com/atlantis/6.8.html

Any guesses if this cartridge is compatible in the Charles Daly Mini Mauser Actions? From the dimensions, it looks like it will fit - not sure if the action is strong enough? Whatcha' think?

http://www.charlesdaly.com/html/prod...erBarreled.asp


TIA!!

Guess what - that case head dimension is the same as the .30-30 Winchester! No rim, of course, but isn't it interesting what comes around?

Sounds like the military isn't too far off from using a .7-30 Waters......

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MikeG

MikeG,
very interesting indeed. The 7-30 with suitable pointed bullets has been used to good effect, to 300 yards in the hands of a good pistoleer, on deer, which are about the same size as the average human(at least up north), from a 14" pistol barrel. Might not be a bad idea, but I love the way a AR shoots at 600 yards with the heavy bullets. I've never tried to kill anyone with one, so this new deal may be more practical at the ranges the average enlistee can hit someone at, and at the shorter ranges the M4 is intended for. Might be a good mix between battle rifle and sub-gun.

Agree with you guys!

Hated the AR15-M16 when I was introduced to them in Basic Training.

.30 caliber is too big. Needs 165-180 grain bullets to get much sectional density.

.22 caliber is too small. 55 grain bullets don't have enough range for many military uses.

Ideal bullet weight is 120-140 grains. 6.5 to 7 mm is ideal for those weights.
2700 fps is about ideal for a military cartridge. Fast enuf to get it out ~1000 yards to an enemy troop concentration but not so much it turns the shooters shoulder to hamberger.

Read in the Rifleman that the Army brought their M-14s out of mothballs for Afganistan. Maybe somebody's paying attention to small arms for the troops, again!

91

At a glance, having toyed with the mini bolt actions and what can be fit in them, I think that this new round will fit in most of them.

Has Charles Daly resolved their import issues yet for the minis? If not this round should even fit well in the little CZ527.

Fireplug

Gentlemen,

Actually, I think this has been coming around for a long time, although I have not heard anything through channels as of yet.

The soldier's satisfaction turned South in the Somilia days, when it took multiple hits from SS109 projectiles, to bring down a 110 lb. Somilian militiaman that was hopped up on an amphetamine type plant, called "khat" or "khack", memory does not serve. I remember one instance where one of the bad guys soaked up between 8 and 11 hits before he cashed it in. One of the Delta boys that was awarded the CMH postumously did not trust the 109 round, and went into the fight with an M14. He and two others held the line literally to the last cartridge.

Special Operations soldiers have more latitude in thier hardware, but the individual soldier does not, and fights with what he is issued. That is probably what Riflemen was refering to. I would truly be surprised if conventional units started changing out thier weapons in the middle of theatre.

The ss109 is the heavier bullet, that does not stabilize in a1 barrells, but the A2/M4 platfrom is more accuratte, and is capable of greater distances. I am told that the 109 bullet does not "tumble" like the A1 series 55 grain bullet would, which actually is said to produce a much more dramatic wounding effect. This bullet was copied by the Russians in their 5.45 AK74 variants, just for that purpose.

Fielding a new system Army wide would be a huge undertaking, and as such, I would not expect new weapons of this type to be availble for awhile. The A2 series started issue army wide over 15 years ago, and I still know of units that are armed with A1s.

I beleive the majority of soldiers are fairly well satisified with the M4, although I don't hear many good things about the A2, which is kind of looked at as yesterday's news. The best thing about this platform is that you can attach illuminators, night vision, dot sights, etc., and the boys like that very much.

Let me know if you hear anything else about adoption of this round. I would surely be excited about such a thing, even though I know as well as anyone that this would be a long term propisition.

Good info, thanks so much.

Steve

__________________
Experience is a hard teacher, because she gives the test first, and the lesson afterwards.

A 6.5 or 7MM BR would be better...why mess with the case head size?

Short + Fat = Jams. The BR line should work in moderate capacity magazines, but I wouldn't want them belt fed. Cartridges of this size range have been around since the 6.5X54 Mannlicher.

Bye
Jack

Gentlemen,

I stand corrected.

One of my fellows that just has gotten back from the "Stan", tells me that more than one conventional unit is using the M14 for their basic issue soldier.

Interesting times, these.

Steve

__________________
Experience is a hard teacher, because she gives the test first, and the lesson afterwards.

Yup, like I've said in previous posts on this same topic - maybe the US was a little hasty in abandoning the .308 and the .45!

__________________
"Keep Off The Ridgeline!"

"Firearms only have two enemies - rust and politicans" author unknown

YUP! The 82nd & 101st asked for and received M-14s in Afghanistan and other units received them again in IRAQ.





At least the President and his administration are aware of the weaknesses of the M4 - M16 weapon system and are trying to make it better until the XM-8 can be deployed in the next five years or so...



http://airbornecombatengineer....arms/


http://www.defensereview.com/m...d=383


http://troyind.com/Sopmod/SOPMOD%20M-14.htm



According to SSK Industries, the new 6.8Rem has identical ballistics as the 20yr old Contender wildcat .270 JDJ... 130gr spitzer = 1642ft/lbs @ 2385fps... and that's surprisingly similar to the 7.62X39mm Russian...

http://www.sskindustries.com/atlantis/6.8.html

The 6.8 was derived from the original (obsolete) 30 Remington cartridge. .422 case head diameter x 52mm case length (7.62 X 52mm). New 6.8mm x 43mm dimensions....

The new case is stronger, shorter and necked to 6.8 MM ('277" bullets.) SSK has a comparison picture of the ol' 30 Remington Cartridge with the new 6.8mm Rem and 5.56mm Rem. on the above link...

Interesting to see how this one turns out...

More discussion & details on:

http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000512.html

"..........Cris Murray:

"This is a reply to the guess work all the supposed smart people are doing on the 6.8x43mm. It would appear that our operational security is working real well. But here are a few bits for you guys to chew on. Its not made from a .25 Rem. case, or reforming .223 brass, how do I know, I designed it. It has nearly the same flight path as the 7.62x51mm M80 ball round out to 650 meters. Delivers approx 4 times the energy on target at 300 meters compared to a SS109 round. The gel block tests are awesome. It drops a 150-300 lbs feral hogs like an axe, also works great on whitetails.
My first choice was 7mm projectiles, but the users wanted something with a flatter trajectory, closer to the 5.56. Tested all calibers 6mm, 6.5mm, .25, 6.8 (.270 for Americans, oh actually the Chinese came up with the 6.8x63mm in the 1930s), didn't do much testing in .30, because it would only be an American M43 cartridge. This was not a private endeavourer nor a fully sanctioned government project, just users and a gun builder making a better product for our guys on the ground, in harms way."

and Remington:

"The 6.8mm Remington SPC is an intermediate length rifle cartridge based on the 30 Remington case. Designed to function in M4/M16 type rifles, the 6.8mm Remington SPC was specifically developed to provide increased reliability, incapacitation, and accuracy not only at close quarters combat distance, but ranges out to 500 meters.
The 6.8mm Remington SPC, (Special Purpose Cartridge) will be offered in three versions for 2004, including Remington's new Premier® Match, line of ammunition. The 115 grain MatchKing® BTHP bullet will deliver a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps and 2002 ft-lbs of energy while providing low felt recoil and 1 MOA accuracy at 100 yards. The 6.8mm Remington SPC will also be available in both BTHP and Metal-Case 115 grain versions."



Chuck, they didn't wanta' change the entire platform for the new ammo. This way, they can just change the barrels & bolts - issue NEW Magazines for the new rounds, and they're back in business with the new 6.8 x 43mm. They'll probably go with entirely new uppers with different accessory & sight rails.

If you already have an AR-15, I understand you only need change the barrel and modify the bolt to get it to fire the new rounds. A new follower in the magazine might be all ya' need to make that work too.

GOOD LUCK!

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/...mm_Barrett.jpg

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/.../6.8mm_PRI.jpg

Nice to see those pics of troops with a REAL battle rifle. Its a shame the pentagon constantly has to attempt to re-invent the wheel. History does repeat itself, and people continue to fail to learn. The failure of the 38LC in the phillipines - EXACTLY like the samolia example above - is why the goverment ended up with the Colt 1911 in the first place.
The men of the early part of the century knew thier firearms and have been down this road before. If a 30 cal, 152 gr bullet at 2740fps, was good enough for two world wars, then its probably something that doesnt need to be changed.
The interesting question I would like to know is, Do the troops in afganistan complain about the recoil, and wish they had M16's?

HKW

Very interesting round. The 223 just makes Major right at the muzzle and the 6.8 is 1.74 times major...a big difference in knockdown.

The 115 gr .277 bullet has a sectional density of .214 compared to the 223 at .156. Penetration will be much better. The 6.8 also has a better expansion ratio, reaching optimal bbl length at 21.7 inches, while the .223 needs 24.

Can i ask a silly question ?

Why did the "boffins" settle on 6.8mm when 6.5mm would seem to have better B.C and S.D

Is there a very "clever" reason or is it simply another case of 6.5mm fobia

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Best Regards from Across the pond.
Remember ~Britain is an Island it will never be part of Europe ! .22LR .30-30 .308 .444 Marlin